Summoner: An action or a dot?

[MirronTulaxia]

I assure you, removing dots would piss most summoners off. Also how do you go through 5.0 and think hmmm putting unnecessary extra interactions to them is the way to go. Have you guys heard of the saying more is less? The dots got as much gameplay as they need to have, we got bard as someone whose whole kit is based on dots being up, we dont need smn to be the same. As for not fitting the identity, i call bull the game gives a really good picture on what Summoner is and what he can and cant do , personal strict definitions and nostalgia from older games are completely irrelevant.

The only reason Summoner even exists is because of those old games. And it's not like you can't look at the old games and see a pattern that Summoner doesn't fit.

And I do think they were talking about trimming down Summoner, not making more "unnecessary extra interactions".

[Shougun]

The only reason Summoner even exists is because of those old games. And it's not like you can't look at the old games and see a pattern that Summoner doesn't fit.

And I do think they were talking about trimming down Summoner, not making more "unnecessary extra interactions".

Yeah (+1, the following in agreement, support, and expansion of your argument)... You can disregard your history but to say people would always enjoy you subverting everything because "I can" is.. well that's crazy talk lol. Not saying HeulGDarian says disregard everything, but that you can easily lead to upset by ignoring your roots.

Blue is red now. Chocobos look like moogles! hahahahaha, *maniacal laughter* /insert tic tac toe meme image here.

I'm being very extreme of course lol (for a point), but history is absolutely part of an image. You can subvert expectations, that can be fun sometimes, but it also can be wholly unwelcomed. Like if we had a hyper-realistic FF game you might see black mage actually be a sort of bomb throwing alchemist, using chemical combinations to form elemental attacks- doesn't actually use magic, but people would probably accept that if the game fit it (so the subversion would be realistic FF, and black mage would fit that). Now if the whole game was hyper magical and yet black mage was tossing chemical bombs still some people might think cool but others would be like . . . . . "seriously? Dark Knight is using black magic and I'm throwing bombs?!?!? what the heck SE! Should have made chemist this, I want BLACK MAGE, you know the one from the other 300 games you've made??".

Chocobos are actually little goblins that we ride around on their backs, the gold goblins run the fastest and can fly. Maybe that'd be a funny goof or fit in another game, but would be awful if attempting to sell the whole game like that (and trying to be a serious FF game at the same time).

And why does history matter you say? Well because it's a FF game and they clearly build and relate upon themselves. Not hyper strictly (which allows for subversion of course, but you can fail subversion- which is my point there, you can try something different and it can frankly be a bad try lol).

If SE wanted to not have it relate to other FF games and not have a relationship to the history of FF.. try.. not calling it a FF game. So yes the history of Summoners matters because this isn't A realm Reborn. This is FFXIV: A Realm Reborn.

All that- I did want to say ARR's SMN was fine gameplay wise, I just think it really missed the mark in the thematic vibe/visual department. It was a fine job, it just wasn't a fine Summoner. Which comparing SMNs is and should be allowed as this is again not A Realm Reborn, it's Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn (well now Shadowbringers, but at the time this was a hot hot issue it was "ARR" lol).

If you improve or subvert expectations in a welcomed way you win (and it's totally okay to attempt to subvert expectation), if you make the exact same thing over and over and people get bored- you lose, if you subvert and fail then you lose. They didn't, imo, improve the job and they didn't subvert in a way that was interesting (why would I want to play something so diminutive compared to it's history- and it's not like the rest of FFXIV is hyper-restrictive either, like comparing your shanty town to Rivendale lol). Though to their credit they've worked on it each expansion. Honestly once they added trance and demi-bahamut I was pretty happy. Still desire they go dig deep and give a make over to some elements, like adding more egi (with functions), and thematic primal vibes to spells (visual and actual, attempting to tell a story through more than just potency numbers, when possible and balance-able), but that doesn't require a complete destruction of their gameplay/loop (can be fit within the structure already present), and again am largely happy with the changes they've made in attempts to give SMN the 'FF' summoner vibes but also am not opposed to further passes over the job to refine the theme (like when Phoenix comes out with a pretty substantial heal over time for example I was like 'dudeeeeee, nice job guys!').

[HeulGDarian]

The only reason Summoner even exists is because of those old games. And it's not like you can't look at the old games and see a pattern that Summoner doesn't fit.

And I do think they were talking about trimming down Summoner, not making more "unnecessary extra interactions".

Its cause ive played most of them games that i know is bull.
Summoner on ff3, summons had a white attack a black attack and an ultimate attack, had 3 jobs the evoker, the summoner and sage with sage being able to do every spell in the game including summoning
Summoner ff4 , Ridia had Bio and other black magic
Summoner ff5 , summoner had the ability to summmon a random summon at no cost, with the magic system giving you one spot to slot another jobs spell
Summoner ff6 , Every summon gave you magic to use and upped your skills
Summoner ff7, A summon is just a materia and does nothing more
Summoner ff8, Summons give you magic and abilities that boost your stats
Summoner ff10 , Yuna the high summoner was using healing spells and protection spells
Summoner ff13 , The summons attack with you for a period of time before performing a big attack

We go to ff14 and you people make it sound like its the first time a summoner was doing more than just put a summon out. Ill tell you what ff14 summoner is, its the job finally getting what it deserves , a magic system where it can be a standalone job that explains it can do more than just summon , hate it all you like but it is a summoner in every sense of the word. It summons stuff if you want to know why summoner is able to do more than just summons go read the lore, if you cant handle dots play another job.

[MirronTulaxia]

Its cause ive played most of them games that i know is bull.
Summoner on ff3, summons had a white attack a black attack and an ultimate attack, had 3 jobs the evoker, the summoner and sage with sage being able to do every spell in the game including summoning
Summoner ff4 , Ridia had Bio and other black magic
Summoner ff5 , summoner had the ability to summmon a random summon at no cost, with the magic system giving you one spot to slot another jobs spell
Summoner ff6 , Every summon gave you magic to use and upped your skills
Summoner ff7, A summon is just a materia and does nothing more
Summoner ff8, Summons give you magic and abilities that boost your stats
Summoner ff10 , Yuna the high summoner was using healing spells and protection spells
Summoner ff13 , The summons attack with you for a period of time before performing a big attack

We go to ff14 and you people make it sound like its the first time a summoner was doing more than just put a summon out. Ill tell you what ff14 summoner is, its the job finally getting what it deserves , a magic system where it can be a standalone job that explains it can do more than just summon , hate it all you like but it is a summoner in every sense of the word. It summons stuff if you want to know why summoner is able to do more than just summons go read the lore, if you cant handle dots play another job.

The big thing you're missing is that in all of those they were different categories of magic. Summoning Magic is just Summoning. That characters are hybrids doesn't mean that the concept of Summoner is, which is true in games where you get actual jobs and not characters.

I'm... not even sure what point you're trying to make with VII/VIII/VI, none of those are actual Summoners. Same goes for XIII.

[HeulGDarian]

The big thing you're missing is that in all of those they were different categories of magic. Summoning Magic is just Summoning. That characters are hybrids doesn't mean that the concept of Summoner is, which is true in games where you get actual jobs and not characters.

I'm... not even sure what point you're trying to make with VII/VIII/VI, none of those are actual Summoners. Same goes for XIII.

Yes ofc too hell with all the other summon systems, lets just pick and choose the ones we like. And from all these titles i said you know in how many summoner is a solo job? 1 ff5, you can make the arguement of ff3 as well but summoner gets upgraded to sage gaining once again black and white magic. This summoner isnt just a summoner either, SE went ahead and created a magic system in which summoning can fit without having to be a blm that being the arcanima magic system. It may not be your cup of tea but it is for many more others. Arcanima gave summoner the out he needed in order to be a standalone job, a magic system unique to him and only him. One that doesnt play in the fanciness aspect of summoner but instead the options aspect.

[MirronTulaxia]

Yes ofc too hell with all the other summon systems, lets just pick and choose the ones we like. And from all these titles i said you know in how many summoner is a solo job? 1 ff5, you can make the arguement of ff3 as well but summoner gets upgraded to sage gaining once again black and white magic. This summoner isnt just a summoner either, SE went ahead and created a magic system in which summoning can fit without having to be a blm that being the arcanima magic system. It may not be your cup of tea but it is for many more others. Arcanima gave summoner the out he needed in order to be a standalone job, a magic system unique to him and only him. One that doesnt play in the fanciness aspect of summoner but instead the options aspect.

Er... Summoner is in a whole heck of a lot as a solo job other than III and V. XI, Tactics line, others as well. And the point is that there is still a clear delineation between Summoning Magic and anything else a Hybrid character uses. It's like using Rosa as an argument for White Mages being spliced with Rangers.

And my point has never been about how much fun it is or is not, it's that it isn't a proper Summoner. Trying to appeal to me with weak pathos rhetoric like that will get you nowhere.

[HeulGDarian]

Er... Summoner is in a whole heck of a lot as a solo job other than III and V. XI, Tactics line, others as well. And the point is that there is still a clear delineation between Summoning Magic and anything else a Hybrid character uses. It's like using Rosa as an argument for White Mages being spliced with Rangers.

And my point has never been about how much fun it is or is not, it's that it isn't a proper Summoner. Trying to appeal to me with weak pathos rhetoric like that will get you nowhere.

You think that im trying to appeal to you? im trying to correct the misinformation of what is and isnt a summoner. You cant pick what matches your point of view and then discard the rest, and this is what you are doing , especially when out of all the game a total of 3 from the main series , arguably 2 had a pure summoner , 1 of which had a system akin to current egi system, and from non main series we have a total of 4 , arguably 2 since 3 of them are an actual series, unlike the main ones which each is distinct between them.

[MirronTulaxia]

You think that im trying to appeal to you? im trying to correct the misinformation of what is and isnt a summoner. You cant pick what matches your point of view and then discard the rest, and this is what you are doing , especially when out of all the game a total of 3 from the main series , arguably 2 had a pure summoner , 1 of which had a system akin to current egi system, and from non main series we have a total of 4 , arguably 2 since 3 of them are an actual series, unlike the main ones which each is distinct between them.

The point isn't whether any particular character was a pure job. The point was "can we look at these jobs and say what they actually are". And... you can. You can look at III. You can look at IV. You can look at V and so on and so forth all the way to Dimensions and get a clear idea of what a Summoner is. Whether or not any individual character was a "pure" Summoner is moot, a lot of times characters aren't purely one job in games like that. Are we to look at Rosa and say "well all White Mages should be Rangers"? Are we to look at Kimahri and say "well all Dragoons should be Blue Mages"? No, because that's a ridiculous stance. And ultimately that's what you're putting forward. We don't have any pure "White Mage" characters, yet here in XIV we could manage that. They could have done the same with Summoner.

And you're distorting information and acting like it's meaningful. I'm not misrepresenting information nor am I lying, which is what misinformation would be in this case. I can back up my case with every single game. They make it abundantly clear what falls where.