Revelations from Patch 5.3

[Saix027]

As a primal, Elidibus is powered by faith. It's to make people put their faith in Warriors of Light (of which he is the first ever in context), which he draws on for strength, rather than keeping their faith in the Warrior of Darkness (the PC).

Step 1: Awaken normies to the Echo.
Step 2: Say they're Warriors of Light and encourage them to be heroes.
Step 3: Give them engineered threats to put down via Black Masks, increasing faith in the Warriors of Light.
Step 4: Profit!

Which makes me wonder how this even works, since they had believe on a different Primal basically and not the person or object itself, i mean wouldn't that mean any primal can pull power from other believers that not worship them directly?

[Saix027]

People were wanting a Nier crossover event and SE delivered on it and gave more than other ones that tend to be disjointed from FFXIV but they gave it the 24 man series in the expansion on the world that the least amount of characters are affected(only the scions have the full knowledge of the First on the Source), I don't think Yoko Taro would be happy with just 2/3 quests for his characters to blip in and out in a crossover he wanted to tell a story here and it just follows his way of story telling which is an acquired taste to be sure.

I do believe that is the main issue tho, feedback and listening to oyur fans and customers is one thing but often it gets out of hand to satisfy simply, changing things to something that makes no sense often, that is why we have Viera and Hrotghar in a poor state instead of make it how they wanted it to be, wanted to satisfy to much people, same with the NIER raid, even on another shard it feels simply way out of place for people, even if it was burried, how did it got there in the first place, they clearly still written down history before the light flood, it still feels out of nowhere simply. On top of its tech seems not to suprise any character at all.

It is simply way to much fanservice not fitting itself in the world it was brought in. Unlike other raids which are FF first, fitted in this FF, like Crystal tower or Ivalice, Nier pushes itself in without feeling connected, it just appears and does its thing.

[Cilia]

Which makes me wonder how this even works, since they had believe on a different Primal basically and not the person or object itself, i mean wouldn't that mean any primal can pull power from other believers that not worship them directly?

It does make sense, contextually. Kind of.

Elidibus is the first ever in-universe "Warrior of Light," having acted as a hero at times to counterbalance the other Ascians' dark and chaotic influence. Thus by putting their faith in the concept of "Warriors of Light," people are unknowingly putting their faith in him.

So by believing in Warriors of Light, people are believing in Elidibus, which gives him power.

[Iscah]

I don't think Yorha raid series will be canon to ffxiv story at all but I also have a hard time finding something else on the First that could fill the 24 man space, on the Source sure plenty of areas but the First not so much, The Empty is being handled by Eden raid series so not much left besides Ronkan Ruins maybe.

Ronkan ruins could have been amazing. Or a desert temple in Ahm Araeng, or, say, mysterious dwarven ruins deep in the Duergar Mountains that aren't based on another game's setting.

The fact we don't have anything to particularly point to is a circular argument, because gameplay requirements are what drives their game world design. If they needed a setting for a 24-man raid, they would have created one.

By the same logic, if they hadn't decided to make a NieR crossover then we wouldn't have the Copied Factory and we wouldn't have just had an alien spaceship (as far as I can tell) tear a hole in Kholusia.

The fact it is on the First and only we interact with it amongst the scions allows it to be more free reign to do what it wants, I can understand people not liking this as how does it fit? On the First I don't think it fits well at all, had Yorha been on the Source it would be a lot more believable due to the Allagans but it would then have to have the caveat of it must 100% fit in and Yoko Taro would be forced to be reigned in a lot more and given a lot more limitations which may have hurt people's current enjoyment of the series.

I don't see how it's more okay to wedge this into the First than the Source. They're equally real worlds inhabited by people I quite like, and I don't want to see the First get this literally-or-figuratively alien design forced on it. Canon or not, it's made a visual impact on the game world and I really am not happy about that. At least I could ignore the Factory's existence when it's isolated. Also dear goodness Chai-Nuzz must be beside himself right now.

As to whether it's canon to FFXIV or not? I certainly hope not and that the writers will never want to reference it again. But every alliance raid up until now has been canon - one has literally just become part of the MSQ - and we will be getting it in alliance raids forever more. (As I've said previously, I find it bizarre that this non-FF game is getting a permanent feature when actual FF crossovers have been temporary events, possibly contradictory to canon, and never to be seen again.)

If it was a temporary event, I could accept the focus on telling a story that relies on previous familiarity with the characters, because it's got limited time to do its thing and it's just not targeted at me. But this is a permanent, major side story in FFXIV, which makes me feel it should be comprehensible to FFXIV players first, extra fulfilling for NieR players second. Ivalice dropped the ball on this too, but not to this extent - I felt lost but at least there was clearly a story happening even if I didn't enjoy it much.

[Lauront]

So, having had some time to sober up from the highs and lows of 5.3, I think I’m less dissatisfied with the way they handled it overall.

I still maintain several of my issues with it (overall rushed feeling; ineffectiveness of the Amaurot gauntlet; lacklustre dungeon; trial felt disjointed; Zenos remains boring; a little too much fanservice; Fandaniel seems a bit of a repeat of Emet in his affect to compensate for Zenos being dull, amongst the other things I mentioned) but focusing on how they related the story of the Convocation to the main character, I’m more satisfied with it, so I’ll just touch on the positives here.

They’re doing their best to connect what remains of the ancient world with the protagonist, and whilst I’ve said I would have loved a story where you could have picked a side in this dispute (yes, I know, not really possible with how they set this up), I think given the confines of their budget and the style of the game and its remaining lifespan, this is a decent compromise. I see them potentially using this as a vessel to diminish Hydaelyn’s role as the Convocation return, albeit in a different form, as stewards of the Star. All that leaves me a little…



Although I still believe they compromised some of Elidibus’s character, particularly the more familiar one is with him from between ARR and SB, and some of it feels ad hoc, at least there is an explanation both for some of the haziness in his mind and not being as powerful as Emet-Selch, in that he is the remnant of Zodiark’s dominant imperative as a primal and whatever imprints that left on Elidibus as a person, so a primal… after a fashion. It’s not clear when his memory began deteriorating, but perhaps the trauma of watching Emet-Selch fade was the catalyst. It provided an opening for the protagonists to try weaken Elidibus’s resolve.

Any exposition he could offer may simply have been deferred for later, to avoid giving too much away about Hydaelyn/Venat etc., so perhaps that is why they took this route. His impulse to heroism/bringing salvation (and thus steadfast resoluteness/devotion) and, in a sense, his innocence of mind, despite being a schemer, were both nice touches. Plus, it was good to see Y'shtola pushing for understanding of and perhaps compromise with the remaining unsundered. It's a pity that a third way forward could never be found, but SE played that card already with Emet and didn't take it anywhere.

It still remains to be seen how they will clarify Venat’s involvement in the matter, particularly as it does not appear either Elidibus or Zodiark were sinister in nature, and I am curious to see if the main character’s rekindling of their memories and, to a degree, sorrow for being unable to find a way to compromise with his unsundered brethren will form a point of division between the protagonist and her, she who actively suppresses memories of the ancient world – or not. I can see the Convocation crystals (which conjure to mind those stones the Night’s Blessed incorporate in their funeral rituals) potentially returning and featuring in a final showdown with Zenos/Fandaniel abusing the power of Zodiark, and perhaps also in dealing with Hydaelyn, depending on how matters evolve with her.

With Elidibus withdrawing from Zodiark, it may provide an explanation as to how the conflict between them went out of control, especially if Hydaelyn was summoned out of the blue (because it’s not like the scene where they mention the hearts is timestamped, so it may have preceded the other scene where the summoning takes place by a bit) – it also means it would be possible for Venat to have done or do the same thing.

Though I am not really one for excessive ego stroking of my character, painting a more detailed picture of them through their history as Azem holds promise, and may yield what I’ve long wanted – one of the Ascian (or rather, Convocation) sigils. It allows them to develop the character through exploring their ancient past, whilst still allowing the player to project what they want on their current life.
All this does point to the Convocation being the inspiration behind the Twelve – if not exactly the same numerically, and not necessarily being a one-to-one correlation, at least in the sense that the role they played inspired faith in a similar body in the form of the Twelve, something that survived in the collective memory of the world.

I’m not sure if this has been posted yet, but I found this to be a nice way to convey more of the thoughts of the Convocation from the time, as well as this, denoting what may be the character’s sigil. Also interesting to find out there’s good reason to suspect the person with Lahabrea, addressing Elidibus, might be none other than Igeyorhm! It seems like the three had quite a close working relationship, much as you had Azem’s friendship with Emet and Hythlodaeus, and Loghrif with Mitron, and so on. All this leaves me wondering what Fandaniel was like at the time and whether any of this insolence we now see in him was there back then as well – I see it as being a major potential point of conflict with him, with his irreverence for the past and towards the unsundered Ascians.

A necromancer Warrior of Light in the dungeon was intriguing and goes to show it’s not an impossibility to reconcile these concepts, either, though again it does look like the concept of the WoL is being gradually moved in the direction of being a hero with a singular purpose, rather than Hydaelyn’s servant, per se.

Lastly, with Zenos being referred to by Elidibus and G’raha as the “beast” (yes, Elidibus calls the WoL this too but I think that was more of a dig, whereas with Zenos he genuinely struggled to comprehend him), my question is whether this will be tied to the crisis that befell Amaurot, seeing as this was something that also came up with the first two dungeon bosses and now is rearing its head in a similar fashion.

Furthermore, I wonder if they will tie Fandaniel and Zenos together somehow, seeing as both are sundered and therefore could be connected as shards.

So yes, I still have reservations and will wait and see where they take the story of the ancients and Venat, as well as Fandaniel and the insufferably dull Zenos, but there do seem to be at least some green shoots to inspire future interest until the saga is drawn to its conclusion, so I'll be eager to see how future patches shape up. Bozja also awaits and I am keen to see if it will contain more adaptations of Ivalice material. One other thing - though I appreciate the Shadowless robes, I still want the hood!

It looks a bit clearer that the path of future travel is Garlemald, though I'm reluctant to make any firm predictions about it - that said, with this being the final chapter in the main story's arc, I find it hard to believe they'd leave that huge, cloud-covered region, Ilsabard, just hanging until later expansions, particularly with Zenos reclaiming the palace. As Sharlayan is an independent city-state, I hope they manage to find a way to couple it with Ilsabard, if that's 6.0's destination.

I’ve gotten round to Nier now, and if I am right, it seems like they’re going with the “aliens” plot point for that. Curious to see how the Reflections interact with the greater cosmos (i.e. other stars), but I am reminded of the fact that they supposedly “rotate” in a manner of speaking, so I want to see if they will delve into that at all. The third and final fights were the most enjoyable.

Also completed Werlyt, and they did a good job with the robot fight, the mechanics were pretty fluid and the animations were good. Although small, Terncliff is a rather attractive map. I’d have liked to see Regula’s Oversoul form (why no gooey Regula?), but apparently those were never intended – just fusion of the pilot with the core. It was also good that they finally provided us with Valdeaulin’s story.

Onto the scene with Valens, legatus of the 7th. Finally, Tears for Mor Dhona sees some use outside of PotD! I wonder how much of the animation budget went into the beads of sweat and the milk, but still no sign of nipples. Much as with Fandaniel, Valens seems like a rehash of other legati, and I suppose he’s also meant to come across as quite creepy, though people will read into the scene what they want to. The impression I got was that he’s not a man who tolerates failure. Just seems like a rehash, tbh, but at least the fight was enjoyable and Gaius got a bit more focus.

[Iscah]

G'raha stuff:

G'raha outright says that there are no contradictions in his memory, which I believe means his Source self was asleep at the time of the transfer. His Source self's memories end at the time he sealed the tower (and presumably found a cozy corner for a catnap), so the only new memories would be waking in the Eighth UE, getting sent to the First, and then returning to the Source. It's a single, unbroken chain of events with no divergence, therefore no opportunity for Source!G'raha to exist as a separate individual. Which I guess still sounds awful if you write it all out, so that's probably why they didn't.

I think I'm going with my own earlier take on it though - and because it's logical, not just because I want to ignore an alternative.

If we were talking senitent clones, which is the thing these sort of conundrums tend to pop up in fiction, then yeah the clone is a separate person and isn't simply the property of their genetic original. But G'raha can know his own mind on such a prospect, and is able to think "yes, I would have been happy to accept this back when I was the age that my other self is now" - and because there's no divergence between the two selves, simply two points on the same life, he is genuinely able to speak for his other self's wishes.

It's still sort of convoluted, but I think it works out okay. Though perhaps they shouldn't have included the idea that there was a risk of damaging both souls... it's not like there were any real stakes to the transfer in the end (unless we're in for a nasty surprise later). Just perhaps make it a risk that the Exarch's soul might not stick properly though G'raha's will still be fine.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't just go the route of transferring the Exarch's memories without his soul, though. I think it would have made the death scene more poignant, but at the same time I think I'd be stuck wondering whether he truly died (i.e. body considered dead, soul free to return to the Lifestream) or whether his soul would remain trapped in his crystalised body. That said, I had contemplated that as a potential ending for him - fusing with the tower completely and watching over the Crystarium forever - but then there's the running theme over the story that immortality is actually pretty miserable.

[Morningstar1337]

Tobe fairness, there are other parts of the game that seems tonally different to the point where its canonical is a little debatable, namely the more comedic Hildibrand storylines.

Also I get the feeling that how the Automata stuff wound up in the Frist will be crux of the 3rd Raid tier and will likely be one of three possibilities

• The Result of Rift crossing that had be precedented by Omega on the XIV side (as well as Gilgamesh) and Caim (IIRC Nier spun off from one of Drakengard's endings) on the Drakengard/Nier side. After all there is evidence of a omniverse beyond Hydaelyn's multiverse of 5-6 dimensions and the Void
• A side effect of a past rejoining, Like an attempt by the Ascians to rejoin led to some parts of the world winding upon the First without being disintegrated into Aether. However this does raise further question as the world in question is that of Nier.
  • Another possibility is that the robots were like aumarot, a recreating of a rejoined world, but that also begs the question of "why would an Ascian (especially if we're left to assume only the Unsundered are capable of such a feat, OTOH Lahabrea was in charge of weapons IIRC, so I can see him having an interest in killer robots) want to recreate YoHRa...twice over?"
• A dream. The most cliched cop-out but also likely the other viable way of reconciling the lore with the raid series. And that has the issue of "why does the WoL and two unrelated dwarves have the exact same dream of advanced robots in Kholusa?"

[Rosenstrauch]

Lali-ho! Dwarf Quests.

Maybe it's just the colors, but these two old ladies remind me of the sadly underutilized Jester girls from Eulmore.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't just go the route of transferring the Exarch's memories without his soul, though.

This is something close to what I was expecting, too.

Specifically, I was expecting the younger G'raha to inherit the Exarch's memories as a sort of job crystal, allowing the Exarch to pass on his legacy after his death.

But I guess even if they did go with that, the matter of what happens with his soul would still be up for discussion. I mean, the fact that he came from a different time line means, from a technical standpoint, he introduced new soul matter into the combined worlds. Even if it's just a drop in the bucket, conservation of matter is still a thing—I think we're going to be asking "What's really up with G'raha Tia's soul?" for a long while.

[Iscah]

Even if it's just a drop in the bucket, conservation of matter is still a thing—I think we're going to be asking "What's really up with G'raha Tia's soul?" for a long while.

Post-game dialogue sort of covers this.

It sounds like soul density is linked to how many unique pieces you've got, and duplicates somehow don't count. Let's just take his word on it and not think too hard. He's done the research, at least.

IMG]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/448734631458766858/744074972929982484/Graha_dialogue_post_5-3.jpg[/IMG]

[Crushnight]

The Sorrow of Welyt

Valens makes me uncomfortable, like really uncomfortable, the way the scene is setup and what goes on just makes me instantly hate his guts.

Those 3 children are there so he can abuse them and that is after he has his way with the woman. No doubt all of Gauis kids went through the same treatment and why they are willing to fuse with the cores killing themselves because the alternative to them is Valens which is just No.

No joke I wished we see more Legatus like Regula van Hydros but he very much seems the exception and a far flung one at that, heck I would've taken a subtle manipulator who continuously coerced people into doing things over what we got with Valens.

Kudos to the team they know how to make people hate a character when they want.

The fight was fun enough but I wish Regula van Hydros got more and the fact his data was used with the worst weapon and used by the worst pilot is disappointing to say the least.

We have fought 2 other Legatus and seems like we have to weapons left so will it be Zenos then Gaius or Gaius then Zenos or will they through a curve ball and have Valens be one, though I suspect his story will be he will pilot the last weapon which'll be Zenos and Zenos goes murder happy for Senpai again.

The area is lovely, though one of the npcs talks about an imperial still being around, I wonder which one and if one of Gaius's kids