Revelations from Patch 5.3

**Rosenoire** · 08-16-2020 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Crushnight

So a lot of Npcs have updated

-Magnai hasn't but what he says with what we know just makes me want to rub it in XD

Out of my chair, little sun--Big Sun is in the house.

(character limit text here0

**Cilia** · 08-16-2020 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Iscah

---

Elidibus / Stones

One of the things Y'shtola questions Elidibus on is whether or not his memory is still clear, and the PC can later call him out on trying to fulfill the wishes of those who have all passed on. Both times he defaults to "It's doesn't matter," but this is more of him defaulting to his programming as a primal than his earnest thoughts and feelings. As a consequence of all those who initially called on / needed him passing away, he no longer has them to keep his existence grounded, and begins losing even more of himself as he draws more and more on the wishes of heroes across the worlds for strength. It's a consequence of his existence as a primal.

Best illustrated in one of the pre-battle cutscenes; when you tell him those he swore to serve are all gone, he tries to restate that oath... but can't remember to whom he swore it.

That said he still does clearly recognize Emet-Selch when he bails you out of the Rift, so who knows.

Regardless, the fact none of the Ascians, save perhaps Emet-Selch, recognize Azem in the PC is a fairly clear sign their memories aren't perfect either.

YoRHa

I agree that what we've gotten so far is a bit dull, but it's important to remember this is Yoko Taro, whose MO is to throw a cruel twist into the final act that recontextualizes just about everything. There are also hints that everything is not what it seems; from 2P's boss title translating to "Longing" in hex, to the contents of her log of the same name, to where said log is found, it's clear things aren't as simple as it appears. That said it ultimately just looks like a rehash of Automata proper, so I'm rather unimpressed. (Unlike a lot of other big raid references, that one was released not so long ago, so riding on nostalgia is a less viable option.)

And yeah, literally every character in the quest chain treating the PC as little more than their gofer hasn't endeared me to any of them. I get that it's a mark of Yoko Taro's writing, but still.

**Hikari_Kishimoto** · 08-16-2020 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Iscah

The solo duty fighting past characters felt like it didn't know what it was trying to achieve.

Very much so.

Also...

Elidibus constantly accusing us of not caring about the fate of his people was so bothering - since it wasn't true at all. If the ending of 5.0 had achieved anything, then it was this.

When he then turned the Amaurotines into races of our time, so that we would relate to his feelings of grief and loss, it felt so unneccessary. In fact, I had felt more related to them, when they had appeared as Amaurotines.

All-in-all, the solo duty felt like an half-hearted, forced attempt to make us realize that to him, we are the bad ones. What we had already known.

Originally Posted by Iscah

... it would have been so much more effective if they'd made you slay illusions of people you cared about.

Absolutely. A missed opportunity.

**EdwinLi** · 08-16-2020 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by Cilia

Elidibus / Stones

One of the things Y'shtola questions Elidibus on is whether or not his memory is still clear, and the PC can later call him out on trying to fulfill the wishes of those who have all passed on. Both times he defaults to "It's doesn't matter," but this is more of him defaulting to his programming as a primal than his earnest thoughts and feelings. As a consequence of all those who initially called on / needed him passing away, he no longer has them to keep his existence grounded, and begins losing even more of himself as he draws more and more on the wishes of heroes across the worlds for strength. It's a consequence of his existence as a primal.

Best illustrated in one of the pre-battle cutscenes; when you tell him those he swore to serve are all gone, he tries to restate that oath... but can't remember to whom he swore it.

That said he still does clearly recognize Emet-Selch when he bails you out of the Rift, so who knows.

Regardless, the fact none of the Ascians, save perhaps Emet-Selch, recognize Azem in the PC is a fairly clear sign their memories aren't perfect either.

If anything, i think the fact that the other ascians not remember Azen is more due to the fact they have always saw him as a traitor because Azem always went against traditions and people tend to never remember properly the people they hate.

Azem directly resolved the issues himself with others while the other memebrs for the 14 follow the tradition of sitting in their tower safely in their city sipping tea and debating on how to resolve the issue first before finally agreeing in majority what to do. A tradition that no doubt left issues to spread to a point when it was already too late to resolve because they chosen to sit on their butts too long on what to do first. From what we learned in the Ascian society, they were more of Majority must agree before they can act kind of people but Azen being a act first and discuss it later type of person does not really give them the best impressions for in their eyes they may see him/her as reckless and dangerous for acting alone.

Heck it is even mentioned Azem was the only one who went outside of the city and tower to explore the world to see the issues directly as well while the 13 members remaind in their city with the only knowledge they get from outside the city are from reports that may not contain all the details about what is going on and in some possible cases may arrive too late to act.

**Fenral** · 08-16-2020 07:54 AM

G'raha stuff:

Originally Posted by Iscah

Rammbroes' message to G'raha strikes me as odd and ambiguously worded, and I originally took it with an alternate interpretation that didn't seem to play out. I need to set my thoughts on it out as a separate post, I think.
[...]
All happiness aside though, wasn't he specifically in the tower to guarantee that there'd be someone able to control it at whatever point it was reopened? Unless the soul crystal continues to be functional as a key not physically bound to an individual, I suppose.

Ramnbroes message was specifically meant to absolve him of his "duty" to the Tower, as well as his inherited duty to Lady-never-mentioned-again Salina herself. The tower has brought hope to people of future times, just not on the Source. Mission accomplished. Sealing it again is more of an "and the Master Sword sleeps... forever" formality than anything else. It's going to sleep again, but this time without leaving that nagging sense of ~~wasted~~untapped potential. The writers have other toys they want to play with now. ~~(Like Azys Lla, maybe?)~~

It also still stands that it could eventually be awakened and operated by other means, just like literally every other piece of technology ever made. Hell, that's been proven at least partway already. The "living key" bit was only ever a flimsy diabolus ex machina to begin with, so the less they dwell on it the better, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Iscah

Alternately or as well, seeing as we didn't actually see G'raha's reawakening, perhaps we woke him first up and asked whether he was willing to accept it. Not that you'd probably want to say no to something like that, but again, the Exarch IS G'raha and would justifiably know that he would want to do it.

Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.

G'raha outright says that there are no contradictions in his memory, which I believe means his Source self was asleep at the time of the transfer. His Source self's memories end at the time he sealed the tower (and presumably found a cozy corner for a catnap), so the only new memories would be waking in the Eighth UE, getting sent to the First, and then returning to the Source. It's a single, unbroken chain of events with no divergence, therefore no opportunity for Source!G'raha to exist as a separate individual. Which I guess still sounds awful if you write it all out, so that's probably why they didn't.

Is it maybe too convenient? Yeah, sure. Is there room for a darker "but actually" down the line? Also yes, but going into that now would have soured the feeling they wanted for this particular finale, just like how the Exarch's body going off warranty wasn't brought up at the end of 5.0 proper.

Unless the real plan is for every Scion but Alph and Alie to have some sort of Sword of Damocles like Y'shtola's cast-from-lifespan aethersight, and for them all to come back into play at the worst possible moment. Yeah, not going to think about that anymore...

**Morningstar1337** · 08-16-2020 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Fenral

Unless the real plan is for every Scion but Alph and Alie to have some sort of Sword of Damocles like Y'shtola's cast-from-lifespan aethersight, and for them all to come back into play at the worst possible moment. Yeah, not going to think about that anymore...

Let's see...

Apart from the aforementioned, Thancred does have an inability to use Aether and Urianger has....job security until they require the EX ARR Trials. Krile didn't have any known adverse effects from being rescued from Eureka, but then again her involvement in that plotline gives her a simialr aegis to Urianger's.

**YianKutku** · 08-16-2020 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Iscah

General thoughts on MSQ:

The first part with the kids dragged unexpectedly. With so much content to go through and the knowledge that things were quite urgent for my friends' wellbeing, here I am participating in this cute but not particularly relevant sidequest instead. It's not terrible but the story isn't off to the exciting start I was anticipating.

I figure that sequence was meant to illustrate (with the subtlety of an anvil, but that's standard for FFXIV) that even if the desire to become Warriors of Light to help people was initially prompted by someone with ulterior nefarious motives, it is still a good and noble desire to want to help people. Alphinaud mentions as much after the grape-picking.

However, I also agree that it drags out a little too much. It could certainly have been streamlined a bit, especially since we didn't need to include fetch quests to make the point.

I admit I'm a little impatient to be able to discuss this patch without spoiler blocks, mainly because it's kind of a hassle to make sure I have that ten characters every time.

**Lium** · 08-16-2020 01:42 PM

YoRHa fights against 10 characters in an effort to post this.

Did the raid earlier today. The fight itself wasn't really anything new. I did die a few times but that's because it was my first time in there. Future runs shouldn't be a problem. A couple people were creeped out by the last fight against 2P. I just typed in alliance chat, "This cannot continue," because the fight reminded me of the fight against Adam in Nier: Automata. I'm guessing that was intentional.

Was happy to see 9S! And also seeing 2B step up to defend the dwarves from the elders was a nice bit of character development on her part. When I was asked who was to blame for the incident, I chose "It's complicated." That's when 2B showed up. The whole thing ended on a downer with Konagg being alone. It was all very abrupt and gave the story a sad feel. I'm guessing this is the same ending for everyone? I can't imagine the Nier team writing multiple outcomes to the story.

And speaking of story, this is actually where I have a bit of a problem. I know this is a crossover event, but past raids in FFXIV are still considered part of the lore, even though they are optional content. As evidenced by the fact that Crystal Tower is now mandatory, Alexander was used to send Graha to the past and the Ivalice raids being required for Bozja. I can't for the life of me imagine how the Nier raids will be considered canon in this game. The leap in technology and the world-hopping implications are just too far out there (no pun intended) even for a Final Fantasy game.

Did you see those flight units attacking the dwarf village? Are you kidding me? Those things could wipe out the entirety of the First in the blink of an eye. Forget Ascians, Zenos, Fandaniel, Zodiark, Hydaelyn, Rejoinings...none of that would matter in the face of virtually anything from the YoRHa universe. The technology is quite literally light years ahead of ANYTHING in FFXIV. The Source would be utterly destroyed. In short order. It would be like Blade Runner showing up in Game of Thrones.

Is this just all for fun and not considered canon? Because otherwise this makes no sense.

**YianKutku** · 08-16-2020 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lium

The technology is quite literally light years ahead of ANYTHING in FFXIV.

I did make a point earlier in this thread that it's actually not, and that's an even bigger problem: the Yorha raid treats it as some brand new out-of-context problem, while our character should probably just go "yeah, this sort of thing happens surprisingly often".

Specifically I'm thinking of Omega.

**Lium** · 08-16-2020 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by YianKutku

I did make a point earlier in this thread that it's actually not, and that's an even bigger problem: the Yorha raid treats it as some brand new out-of-context problem, while our character should probably just go "yeah, this sort of thing happens surprisingly often".

Specifically I'm thinking of Omega.

I guess you can make an argument that the Allagans had advanced technology not too dissimilar from what you'd see in a sci-fi setting. That's in fact why the Garleans are so obsessed with Allagan artifacts, and how magitek was born. Then there's the Werlyt storyline where we are seeing organic and synthetic organisms merging. So, it may not be as far out there as I initially thought.

Still, though, the whole thing just seems jarring to me. And the implications if all this proves to be canon are just...odd. Putting it kindly.

Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.3

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