What would you guys think about getting more Dynamic, "Combo" abilities?

[CaptainLagbeard]

Take, for example, current SAM. Hakaze is GCD 1 for 3 combo trees, with each tree doing something very specific. In order for the 1-2-3 system to work, you'd need to condense these into 3 buttons as Midare requires 3 Sen and the 3 Sen are symbolic to what Midare is. If that were to happen, SAM players could no longer use Hakaze as the primary jumping off point for combos, meaning that specific snap judgments can no longer be made. We'd be locked into a combo set the moment we press a button. As a direct example, in some fights I need to float Hakaze into Midare, Higabana, or something else. My next button depends on what I need done. Do I need a Shifu Refresh? Jinpu? Or can I Yuki safely and get through the filler GCDs early? With the proposed system, this sort of decision making is removed, and thus flexibility, depth. Definitely not worth it imo.

The only solution is to make each combo a 2-button combo, but then that requires rebalancing, such as nerfing Midare due to getting 1 extra each 24 GCDs (roughly, I think that'd be 1.2). But then SAM loses a bit of that "heavy single hit" identity, which is a big loss since, well, that's SAM.

A lot of players might not see that sort of depth and flexibility, admittedly. But removing the possibility, harming the job's identity, or both would definitely hurt the job for me. SAM is a really fun class that has a lot of depth under the surface. I don't feel it's appropriate for it to be removed or harmed just because some players want to press 1-3 buttons over and over. There are better ways to deal with button bloat, such as consolidating buttons that are always used in tandem (queen + detonate, Summon Bahamut + Enkindle Bahamut, Third Eye + Seigan + remove the self heal because it's literally useless) and buttons that shouldn't really exist (Bliz 1 > 3, Fire 2 > Flare) that should be implemented first.

Look, you wouldn't be locked into a full 3 hit combo by initiating one of them, they all start with Hakaze, so using any of the 3 combos WOULD still be possible after a first hit of Hakaze... But there's no reason for Shifu and Kasha to be two separate buttons, or Jinpu and Gekko to be two separate buttons.

It would literally function the exact same, it would just have less buttons to press.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Look, you wouldn't be locked into a full 3 hit combo by initiating one of them, they all start with Hakaze, so using any of the 3 combos WOULD still be possible after a first hit of Hakaze... But there's no reason for Shifu and Kasha to be two separate buttons, or Jinpu and Gekko to be two separate buttons.

It would literally function the exact same, it would just have less buttons to press.

"Look, I don't care to discuss how hard it would be to program it. I just want it, period."

[CaptainLagbeard]

"Look, I don't care to discuss how hard it would be to program it. I just want it, period."

How hard is it to program the game to recognize that an attack was used and that you can move to a second attack in a combo? I dunno.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

How hard is it to program the game to recognize that an attack was used and that you can move to a second attack in a combo? I dunno.

How hard it is to recognize that there are divergent combos in the game? Do you want to have to put the same attack twice in your hotbar and have to figure out which one leads to which second attack?

[CaptainLagbeard]

How hard it is to recognize that there are divergent combos in the game? Do you want to have to put the same attack twice in your hotbar and have to figure out which one leads to which second attack?

You know you can mark the icon to show which combo is which... And the name... "Oh hey, does this button that has the Yukikaze icon and it's tooltip says "Yukikaze combo" lead to Gekko? I don't know!"

[WigglesTheWiggly]

"Look, I don't care to discuss how hard it would be to program it. I just want it, period."

How hard is it to program the game to recognize that an attack was used and that you can move to a second attack in a combo? I dunno.

Exactly and we already have such systems baked into both PvP and a few PvE skills. I doubt it'd be that difficult to tweak seeing as we already have modifiable systems in place to accomplish what's generally being asked for by a number of us.

[CaptainLagbeard]

There is a very good reason: Meikyo Shisui. There exists an opener designed to get Tsubame out ASAP. Like, 1 GCD earlier then normal. It exists to insure that you can get it in 2, 3, 5 minutes down the fight. Or just whatever you need to get out 1 GCD earlier in the cycle. It requires you to Meikyo a Jinpu. With the given combo system, this sort of fringe, gigabrain stuff can't exist. And let me tell you, getting in an otherwise impossible Tsubame is magical. That's not the only use, of course. Some Midare outright ghost if you don't do it.

It's a bit of a PPS loss in the opener but it's truly amazing.

But that's the entire point: The single button combo system removes Options. Limits tools. Cripples creativity. For what gain? So the devs can hit button bloat in all the wrong areas?

Nah. Not supporting that.

Oh yea, I did actually kind of forget about Meikyo Shisui, which would complicate a lot of things for consolidating SAM... That is a fair point...

And getting rid of Meikyo would be an absolutely terrible idea, and even if you made it just use the final attack of the combos, it wouldn't be a perfect solution since very extremly rare occasions, one might use it refresh Jinpu/Shifu...

[Sylve]

Exactly! Rare as it may be, the option of it is there, meaning that creative players could find use for something that is otherwise unoptimal. That said, there are a ton of other consolidations that can be made that won't inhibit this sort of thing. Conditional things, such as Fang and Claw/Wheeling could be made a single button, or force Chaos Thrust/Full to transform. Third Eye could change to Seigan, Queen to Explode, Dragonfire Dive to Stardiver, etc. etc. There are a ton of ways to make button efficiency better while allowing the core buttons to remain as they are.



I know you've taken a while to respond, but we've since passed this. BTW that config only eliminates 2 buttons since you have to manually put Jinpu back on and Meikyo doesn't transform and would never need to. You'd have combo 1, 2, 3, and jinpu. You've only gotten rid of Shifu and Yuki as separate buttons. A lot of dev time when you can accomplish this by getting rid of the self heal and tying Merciful Eyes and Seigan together, eh?

Well, it wasnt something i wrote as a "this is the way it needs to be" thing, Just an example how such a custom condensing system could be used to save keybinds.
I still thing Meikyo should grant Jinpu and Shifu if they aren't already active as part of its effect, but thats a subject for a different thread, lol.

The main point was just to demonstrate that we can save keybinds even on jobs that have many branching combos. Any buttons we can save for ourselves is one less button for the devs to see as pruning targets XD