5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

[Goji1639]

Or you just want easy predictable mechanics because that's all you can handle.

You got me; I'm still stuck on Coincounter. I'll probably never complete AV.

Coincounters BS mechanic is easy to handle; even for a new player. You just have to Youtube the fight before ever doing it. That's apparently the hallmark of a good MMO mechanic; if only other genres knew this secret to creating engaging gameplay for new players.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

You got me; I'm still stuck on Coincounter. I'll probably never complete AV.

Wouldn't be a surprise. Enlightened people who stand above the masses usually have other shortcomings.

Coincounters BS mechanic is easy to handle; even for a new player. You just have to Youtube the fight before ever doing it. That's apparently the hallmark of a good MMO mechanic; if only other genres knew this secret to creating engaging gameplay for new players.

Or you go through the mechanic, die or survive, and now you know how to deal with it. No Youtube required. Simple boss design, but not bad by a longshot.

[Goji1639]

Wouldn't be a surprise. Enlightened people who stand above the masses usually have other shortcomings.


Or you go through the mechanic, die or survive, and now you know how to deal with it. No Youtube required. Simple boss design, but not bad by a longshot.

Youtube is required if you want to have a fair fight when you first encounter the boss. No way to read, react or adjust to it during the fight makes it a bad mechanic and a bad fight.

You all really need to try out some more gameplay oriented games. I feel like if this was anything other than an MMO community I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[Xtrasweettea]

Youtube is required if you want to have a fair fight when you first encounter the boss. No way to read, react or adjust to it during the fight makes it a bad mechanic and a bad fight.

You all really need to try out some more gameplay oriented games. I feel like if this was anything other than an MMO community I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Alright, King of Games Goji, what "more gameplay oriented games" that you play that have FF14 should be emulating when it comes to enemies advertising mechanics to make it fair to the New Player?

[Goji1639]

Alright, King of Games Goji, what "more gameplay oriented games" that you play that have FF14 should be emulating when it comes to enemies advertising mechanics to make it fair to the New Player?

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If we're looking for a specific example most of you have likely at least heard of, I'll go with Dark Souls. Every attack has an animation and a hitbox that's reasonably accurately represented by that animation. Everything the enemies throw you can see coming and react to it during the fight.

[Iscah]

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If the Coincounter was a boss in a single-player game you would absolutely be learning from his physical tells without markers and probably without displayed attack names either. But you also probably wouldn't be trying to fight him while remembering to hit an arbitrary sequence of skills - you're more likely to have a simple attack button and maybe some gimmick tools, and less pressure to keep performing well so you don't let the team down. If you want to spend a few rounds just figuring out what the boss does, you're free to do so without wasting anyone's time.

The flipside of this is that the game has no obligation to let you pass the battle the first time, and death is absolutely a learning tool. If it throws something unrecognisable at you, you will probably die and then learn from that experience - first what to watch out for, then how to deal with it. You're doing this entirely on your own time and not inconveniencing anyone.

The expectations here are different. You don't want to let the group down, so you can't take the same amount of time and attention to learn on your own.

[Goji1639]

Snip

If Coincounter was a boss in a single player game, we would probably have a frame 1 active dodge ability with iframes that allows us to avoid attacks based on the enemies animations. If we had limited mobility and no iframes, like in an MMO, however, there absolutely should be markers indicating what we need to do if the attack can't be survived.

Also, no game has an obligation to let you pass the battle the first time, but there is an obligation to make it possible to do with the information available. If you fail it should be because you made a mistake; not because a mechanic wasn't possible with the knowledge and utilities the game provided.

So, let me get this straight, DarkSouls has animations that advertise an attack that will be coming at you. These attacks also have a hitbox that is based close to as possible with the weapon or object actually doing the attack? Like a giant, armored baddie using a greatsword. I am also sure there's some sort of sound or speech that indicates when an attack is being charged as well, since humans react to sounds faster than reacting to sight.

So FFIXV doesn't do this at all? Through any of its fights? None?

There's no way to know Coincounters attack hits 360 degrees until it's too late to do anything about it, and it kills you in one hit.

In Dark Souls you have frame 1 active dodge animations with iframes, so you can avoid attacks based on what the animation looks like. Since FFXIV has limited mobility and no iframes it needs to provide markers, or NOT 1 hit kill you, to create a mechanic that can be reacted to or adjusted for. If FFXIV fails to do either of those things then the mechanic is a failure of basic design principles.

[Xtrasweettea]

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If we're looking for a specific example most of you have likely at least heard of, I'll go with Dark Souls. Every attack has an animation and a hitbox that's reasonably accurately represented by that animation. Everything the enemies throw you can see coming and react to it during the fight.

So, let me get this straight, DarkSouls has animations that advertise an attack that will be coming at you. These attacks also have a hitbox that is based close to as possible with the weapon or object actually doing the attack? Like a giant, armored baddie using a greatsword. I am also sure there's some sort of sound or speech that indicates when an attack is being charged as well, since humans react to sounds faster than reacting to sight.

So FFIXV doesn't do this at all? Through any of its fights? None?