I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Veis_Alveare]

Yeah, I can hold aggro no problem. And I haven't had anyone complain about my tanking so far. I've even received all three comms several times. But I know there's elitists out there who think everyone not performing in the top 10% dps is wasting their time. I mean, back in Stormblood some tanks ran dungeons in dps stance and with dps materia because it let them do more damage. A few were even able to pull it off and still hold aggro. That's moot now of course since tank stance has no downsides, but I hope I never have to meet someone who demands me to use their personal meta of the week. And this implies that the suggested strategy is not or only marginally beneficial. I'm happy enough to incorporate advice into my playstyle but if someone wants me to eat AoEs and vuln stacks so they can get a better dps parse, yeah no. And I guess this has gone off on a tangent so I'll stop ranting now.

I don't think these people really exist.

I say this as a player who's static forced them to swap jobs for better kill times, I have some friends who really care about efficiency even more than I do but the only things I've heard them complain about in terms of DF tanks are baby pulls and no mitigation. If your uptime is great enough to hold threat whatever dps the group loses while you dodge is just so completely outclassed by everyone being able to properly AoE down full packs... anyone with a brain in their head won't care.

I'm not saying don't try to do better and improve your uptime on larger pulls but I don't see you catching much flak for having slightly lackluster damage as long as all the stuff is hitting you and you're full (or at the very least double) pulling.

[Penthea]

... but then there's the chance you'll get the high and mighty privileged "don't tell me what to do!" people and some of us have seen this enough times that it feels like it's better to just throw the person into the deep end of the pool first and then see whether they were okay with it, or they'd prefer it if people didn't do that.

I don't consider this a good reason to just do whatever you want without asking. This argument is essentially "I do something rude first just in case the other person might be rude to me if I ask them about it instead". That's some damn selfish logic.

[ForteNightshade]

And that is why it's very rude thing to do to pull more mobs because one player is creating and forcing the situation on the whole party.

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

[odintius]

The duty finder was a mistake make party finder the go to tool their I said it feel much better now k bye....!

[Awha]

Oh yea I totally understand someone's logic when they say "why should I thank someone for something they should be doing?" but it's another thing altogether to get offended when someone does. That's just being spiteful for literally no good reason.

I don't expect to be thanked when I do a good job healing, but it's nice when it does happen. And I like when I see people do the same to others.

Chances are if they say no things wouldn't turn out well anyway if you made that decision for them. At best you would annoy someone. At worst they or others will leave. Neither of those situations is good but obviously one is far worse than the other.

If a person wants something and nothing else is acceptable they should just leave if what they want is impossible whether due to the skill of the group or someone refusing to do something. Or alternatively vote kick. Either way someone not fitting in with what the group wants ends up leaving.

I'm a pretty easy going person but like everyone else there are limits to my patience. If I'm in a situation in which I'm expected to do something I think is unreasonable or what the group wants is something I refuse to give, I leave. I never leave silently though. Like for example if I come across a very undergeared tank who isn't very good that makes every pull a nightmare I say something like "bad gear and bad use of cds, you're making me work very hard for your shortcomings. Find another healer for this, I'm not dealing with it." and then I leave. No need for insults. Just say what's wrong, and go. It's a game. No one has to deal with other people's playstyles if they don't want to.

EDIT: just want to say that if I come across a bad tank with bad gear I do advise them to pull less or use their cds better, and if they refuse or simply cannot do it that's when I choose to leave the group.

Oh I largely agree, this is why I go for the vote or leave route. Though looking at it from the point of others it also makes sense to push forward and force the tank into a situation of having to deal with larger groups. Since if they do fail it does increases the chances for the vote to go through in theory. If it does not fail and the tank still wants single pulls then any potential good will that would have been granted if they would have asked for permission in theory may go out the window. Since in the eyes of everyone else the desire to not do larger pulls shifts from a lack of ability to simply unwillingness to do so.

It is selfish, but in theoretical practice the cons do not absolutely outweigh the pros depending on how one looks and values each situation. It greatly shifts the burden and alters the expectations of the group depending on the outcome. It sort of falls in line with the post you made in sarcasm, for many players tanks really have no value to some players. Their role is just a given necessity forced on them by the developers. Tanking is a thankless role at times, and one that regrettably be manipulated into playing a certain way fairly easy in the current structure of MMO's today.

[Penthea]

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

Personally I don't mind wiping if teaches a rude player a lesson. No one should be silently pulling extra packs and just expecting the tank to just take care of it. If you're not mannerly enough to even say anything about it first, then you don't really deserve the tank's protection.

I'm quite disappointed to see how common it is for people to basically say "ya I know doing that is rude but the tank should just be the better person and deal with it". Gosh, putting all the moral weight and responsibility on the tank while the rude people who pull silently are supposed to just get away with it. How lovely. Really glad I'm not in the same data centre as some of you.

[Alleluia]

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

Aren't they pulling more than the tank wants to to essentially teach *them* a lesson? Specifically in how they think the dungeon should be tanked?

[LaylaTsarra]

Aren't they pulling more than the tank wants to to essentially teach *them* a lesson? Specifically in how they think the dungeon should be tanked?

If they continued to pull after politely asking them to stop I'd simply step back and let them tank them.

[Alleluia]

If they continued to pull after politely asking them to stop I'd simply step back and let them tank them.

Agreed. Also, it'd have to be clear they went and pulled, instead of just accidentally positioned wrong and drew aggro.

But if the tank doesn't want to tank more and that has been made clear, then "you spank it, you tank it" is perfectly valid.

[Awha]

Agreed. Also, it'd have to be clear they went and pulled, instead of just accidentally positioned wrong and drew aggro.

But if the tank doesn't want to tank more and that has been made clear, then "you spank it, you tank it" is perfectly valid.

Interesting thing about you spank it, you tank it. What if the healer makes the choice to heal the one who pulled and gets aggro? I ran into a tank that pulled the tank it, you spank it card on a drg that pulled extra mobs. I was healing, and I do not like the idea of just letting someone die if I can help them. The tank stood their ground after the initial pack of mobs the tank pulled were dead. I ended up tanking the rest as the healer. I get what the tank was trying to do, but in the end their action made my job objectively harder then it would have been if they had just got aggro on the extra pack of mobs. Since I had to juggle between the two sources since I already started to heal the DPS.

I get the mindset behind it, but unless the rest of the group is on board with the tank it really does make life harder for everyone else.