I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[ForteNightshade]

And that is why it's very rude thing to do to pull more mobs because one player is creating and forcing the situation on the whole party.

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

[Penthea]

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

Personally I don't mind wiping if teaches a rude player a lesson. No one should be silently pulling extra packs and just expecting the tank to just take care of it. If you're not mannerly enough to even say anything about it first, then you don't really deserve the tank's protection.

I'm quite disappointed to see how common it is for people to basically say "ya I know doing that is rude but the tank should just be the better person and deal with it". Gosh, putting all the moral weight and responsibility on the tank while the rude people who pull silently are supposed to just get away with it. How lovely. Really glad I'm not in the same data centre as some of you.

[LittleImp]

Personally I don't mind wiping if teaches a rude player a lesson.

And that makes you toxic. You're willing to intentionally and maliciously obstruct the entire party because someone does something that upsets you personally.

No one should be silently pulling extra packs and just expecting the tank to just take care of it. If you're not mannerly enough to even say anything about it first, then you don't really deserve the tank's protection.

This thread started specifically in reference to endgame roulettes; Mass pulling is the standard so most people don't see a necessity to communicate about it. Sometimes people don't even notice the tank has stopped at the first pack of mobs, and accidentally sprint ahead into the aggro range of the next pack.

I'm quite disappointed to see how common it is for people to basically say "ya I know doing that is rude but the tank should just be the better person and deal with it". Gosh, putting all the moral weight and responsibility on the tank while the rude people who pull silently are supposed to just get away with it. How lovely. Really glad I'm not in the same data centre as some of you.

It's even more disappointing to see how many people endorse literal, bannable griefing as a justified emotional response to the situation.

The reason the 'Burden' is placed on the tank in this situation is because a single-pulling tank in an endgame roulette is widely considered a detriment to the party; They're playing in a way that is considered obstructive/slow by most players doing endgame roulettes, and (assuming they've cleared the dungeon before), they're doing so out of incompetence.

[Penthea]

And that makes you toxic. You're willing to intentionally and maliciously obstruct the entire party because someone does something that upsets you personally.

Lol this is hilarious. You are calling me toxic because I won't let someone have their way without even asking anyone about it. Apparently I'm supposed to just let everyone do what they want, change my playstyle to match and if I don't I'm toxic? What I want or what I can do doesn't matter? Only what other people want matters? Buzz off with that hypocrisy. No one exists just to satisfy the silent whims of another player regardless of your role.

This thread started specifically in reference to endgame roulettes; Mass pulling is the standard so most people don't see a necessity to communicate about it. Sometimes people don't even notice the tank has stopped at the first pack of mobs, and accidentally sprint ahead into the aggro range of the next pack.

First of all mass pulling does not mean you always pull everything. Secondly I have NEVER seen anyone say "oh didn't notice you stopped moving" to a tank because it's pretty damn obvious considering they're being followed by a bunch of mobs. Not saying it never happens but I would find it hard to believe that it is anything other than rare. A tank pulling multiple packs is not exactly subtle behaviour.

The reason the 'Burden' is placed on the tank in this situation is because a single-pulling tank in an endgame roulette is widely considered a detriment to the party; They're playing in a way that is considered obstructive/slow by most players doing endgame roulettes, and (assuming they've cleared the dungeon before), they're doing so out of incompetence.

But people are not talking about only single pack pulls!

I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

[LittleImp]

Lol this is hilarious. You are calling me toxic because I won't let someone have their way without even asking anyone about it. Apparently I'm supposed to just let everyone do what they want, change my playstyle to match and if I don't I'm toxic? What I want or what I can do doesn't matter? Only what other people want matters? Buzz off with that hypocrisy. No one exists just to satisfy the silent whims of another player regardless of your role.

I'm calling you toxic because you endorsed griefing the entire party. You should try to handle the situation, and then ask them not to do it again. Maliciously obstructing the entire remainder of the party to punish one person is absolutely toxic behaviour.

First of all mass pulling does not mean you always pull everything. Secondly I have NEVER seen anyone say "oh didn't notice you stopped moving" to a tank because it's pretty damn obvious considering they're being followed by a bunch of mobs. Not saying it never happens but I would find it hard to believe that it is anything other than rare. A tank pulling multiple packs is not exactly subtle behaviour.

It's not uncommon to outpace the tank if they decide to stop for 2 GCDs to establish threat. I frequently manage to get ahead of the tank while playing WHM.

But people are not talking about only single pack pulls!

I have seen plenty of people pull extra packs onto the tank when the tank was already tanking more than one pack.

Wall-to-wall is standard in all of the current endgame dungeons, aside from perhaps the final pull of amenesis which most parties seem to communicate about before attempting (and most seem to do it anyway).
Also, people have absolutely been trying to justify single pulling throughout this thread.

[Penthea]

I'm calling you toxic because you endorsed griefing the entire party. You should try to handle the situation, and then ask them not to do it again. Maliciously obstructing the entire remainder of the party to punish one person is absolutely toxic behaviour.

I see and pulling a pack on your own without saying anything is not griefing or toxic behaviour of any kind at all then? Even though it can cause a wipe? This is the act of some angel who only wants to bestow a wonderful combat experience upon us lesser beings who have no right to know what they want to do even if it affects the whole group? Right, sorry for misunderstanding. I'll go back in to my "your wish is my command" box.

It's not uncommon to outpace the tank if they decide to stop for 2 GCDs to establish threat. I frequently manage to get ahead of the tank while playing WHM.

Sure yea this happens. Still haven't ever seen anyone not notice that the tanked stopped though.

Wall-to-wall is standard in all of the current endgame dungeons, aside from perhaps the final pull of amenesis which most parties seem to communicate about before attempting (and most seem to do it anyway).
Also, people have absolutely been trying to justify single pulling throughout this thread.

When I talk about pulling an extra pack...I literally mean exactly that regardless of what is being tanked already. I have experienced quite a few wipes because some dolt decided we had to play the way they wanted but we weren't deserving of any kind of warning. And I have seen this happen when the tank already pulled more than one pack. People who pull extra packs aren't all exceptionally sensible creatures who can't make a bad call. I've even see players with horrifically bad dps pull extra packs.

What I want from people isn't much. I just want someone to say "can you please pull more?" or say "I am going to pull more" instead of saying literally nothing, going off on their own to pull a pack, and expect people to just be okay with them forcing the group to deal with it. But apparently wanting basic manners is too much, and not wanting to give in to the whims of someone who acts as if the group exists only for their desires makes me a toxic person.

So in short in order to not be seen as toxic I have to be a doormat. Got it.

[LittleImp]

I see and pulling a pack on your own without saying anything is not griefing or toxic behaviour of any kind at all then? Even though it can cause a wipe? This is the act of some angel who only wants to bestow a wonderful combat experience upon us lesser beings who have no right to know what they want to do even if it affects the whole group? Right, sorry for misunderstanding. I'll go back in to my "your wish is my command" box.

Pulling extra mobs isn't inherently obstructive and is typically done because the person thinks the party is capable of handling the situation and it will increase the efficiency of the run. The intent isn't malicious, they're not doing it with the explicit purpose of harming someone else. Rather, that's what you're doing when you decide to wipe the party because you're upset.

And for the record, I'm not endorsing people pulling for the tank. I'm arguing against literal griefing being an acceptable response.

When I talk about pulling an extra pack...I literally mean exactly that regardless of what is being tanked already. I have experienced quite a few wipes because some dolt decided we had to play the way they wanted but we weren't deserving of any kind of warning. And I have seen this happen when the tank already pulled more than one pack. People who pull extra packs aren't all exceptionally sensible creatures who can't make a bad call. I've even see players with horrifically bad dps pull extra packs.

Sure, I've also seen misguided DPS do this. It doesn't mean that maliciously griefing the party is a justified response.

What I want from people isn't much. I just want someone to say "can you please pull more?" or say "I am going to pull more" instead of saying literally nothing, going off on their own to pull a pack, and expect people to just be okay with them forcing the group to deal with it. But apparently wanting basic manners is too much, and not wanting to give in to the whims of someone who acts as if the group exists only for their desires makes me a toxic person.

It's okay to dislike people doing this. It's okay to express that you don't like people doing this. It is not okay to intentionally grief the entire party because you're upset about it. If you do everything you can to recover the pull, and you still wipe, ask the DPS to stop or just initiate a votekick. Wanting 'basic manners' is fine. Griefing because someone doesn't have them is not fine. There are ways to address the situation without risking your account.

So in short in order to not be seen as toxic I have to be a doormat. Got it.

This is actually a widely held notion that is worthy of criticism on FFXIV, but I don't think it applies to this particular situation.

[Alleluia]

Except the context is different. They're pulling to speed up the run and have no intention of causing a wipe whereas you refusing to pull off them is entirely out of pettiness while knowing full well said pettiness can lead to a wipe.

Even if you subscribe to the belief pulling for the tank is rude. Allowing the party to potential wipe so you can "teach them a lesson" is far worse.

Aren't they pulling more than the tank wants to to essentially teach *them* a lesson? Specifically in how they think the dungeon should be tanked?

[LaylaTsarra]

Aren't they pulling more than the tank wants to to essentially teach *them* a lesson? Specifically in how they think the dungeon should be tanked?

If they continued to pull after politely asking them to stop I'd simply step back and let them tank them.

[Alleluia]

If they continued to pull after politely asking them to stop I'd simply step back and let them tank them.

Agreed. Also, it'd have to be clear they went and pulled, instead of just accidentally positioned wrong and drew aggro.

But if the tank doesn't want to tank more and that has been made clear, then "you spank it, you tank it" is perfectly valid.