I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[Nestama]

It's the tanks job to hold aggro, so they do the pulls. I act on that unwritten rule and, in my opinion, everyone who willingly likes to mess with that philosophy can die to the mobs they pulled.

Yeah no, that's bad play/griefing and it's outing yourself as a party dictator (it's also slowing the run down). Just tell them not to pull for you once everything is dealt with, or adjust to bigger pulls if the extra mobs didn't cause a wipe.

The only time small pulls > big pulls is if the DPS and healer are bad (don't AoE, don't DPS, undergeared, etc). Everyone controls the pace of the run. Not just the tank.

[MistakeNot]

No, it's basic competency. Most tanks do employ basic competency. Those who do not make it miserable for the rest of the group. Why should the tank be more important than the rest of the group?

It is nothing to do with comfort. The tanks that do single pulls are playing the game very, very badly. You do not want to justify bad play, ever.

Nope, doing big pulls has nothing to do with competency. You can argue that being able to handle a big pull is basic competency, but actually doing big pulls or not has nothing to do with competency.


Unlike you I will claim that doing big pulls is actually a bad habit and sloppy tactics only made possible because enemies are weak.
Pulling big when the opponents actually are dangerous will result in a wipe, and is therefore a bad habit to get into.
Good tactics is to minimize the danger of each fight - hence small pulls are good tactics. That doing small pulls means the run takes a few minutes longer is of not important.

Doing really big pulls just means fights get more chaotic. Chaotic fights are bad.

[WaxSw]

Indeed. Communication is key in both ways. If you want your tank to go faster, you can tell them about it. But to run forward and aggro everything, forcing the tank to run between the pulls ... This is a bad idea.

Same could be said however to those who want to go slower, what you have to communicate is how you're going outside the norm either by being blazing fast or being slow as a snail

[WaxSw]

Nope, doing big pulls has nothing to do with competency. You can argue that being able to handle a big pull is basic competency, but actually doing big pulls or not has nothing to do with competency.


Unlike you I will claim that doing big pulls is actually a bad habit and sloppy tactics only made possible because enemies are weak.
Pulling big when the opponents actually are dangerous will result in a wipe, and is therefore a bad habit to get into.
Good tactics is to minimize the danger of each fight - hence small pulls are good tactics. That doing small pulls means the run takes a few minutes longer is of not important.

Doing really big pulls just means fights get more chaotic. Chaotic fights are bad.

Good tactics maximize the resources you have without risking the clear therefore why pulling big is actually a good habit, enemies are weak so in order to get the most out of your tools you must take as much as them as possible making the healers less likely to overheal, getting more value out of aoes and getting more value out of % mitigation

Small pulls renders either tanks or healers unnecessary (for example you can single pull as healer with 2 dps all the pulls of grand cosmos and anyder), that is not a good resource management and therefore the tactics that relies on those are less efficient and worse overall

[LittleImp]

Nope, doing big pulls has nothing to do with competency. You can argue that being able to handle a big pull is basic competency, but actually doing big pulls or not has nothing to do with competency.

If your skill level is holding you back from being able to handle big pulls, you are incompetent.
If you and your party are both capable of handling large pulls and you still refuse to do it, you're still incompetent but in a different way.

Unlike you I will claim that doing big pulls is actually a bad habit and sloppy tactics only made possible because enemies are weak.

Exploiting the weakness of your enemies for efficiency is good game-play, not sloppy tactics. Players are adapting to the way the game is designed to maximize the value of their time invested. If you have a problem, blame the devs not the players.

Pulling big when the opponents actually are dangerous will result in a wipe, and is therefore a bad habit to get into.

Dungeons are completely static in this game. You aren't going to queue up for Copperbell Mines one day and get your face punched in by a dragon that wasn't there yesterday.

Good tactics is to minimize the danger of each fight - hence small pulls are good tactics. That doing small pulls means the run takes a few minutes longer is of not important.

There is also an extremely minimal amount of risk involved in the vast majority of large pulls, as the skill requirement to execute big pulls is extremely small.

In a game with daily rewards and static completion rewards, time essentially has direct value. If you spend 5-10 minutes extra in each of your dungeon roulettes, it can actually add up pretty quickly across the span of a week, especially if you're adding that time for essentially no reason.

Big pulls are an extremely accessible step any player can make that nets them a huge amount of saved time vs effort involved.

Doing really big pulls just means fights get more chaotic. Chaotic fights are bad.

What exactly is 'Chaos' and how is it bad?

[Euphares]

But then, that's just something you put up with--the subpar dps and healing--because your threshold is not wiping. Some people, like me, would rather just re-adjust to single pulls because why go the extra mile of mass pulling if no else in the party won't and/or can't put the effort in? That wouldn't make me garbage, I'm just reading room and adjusting accordingly.

I agree with you and I do the same, but I still feel like a certain pressure should be put on people to play at a certain level, obviously not to a stressful degree.

That's probably the biggest annoyance about this game for me, that even playing at an average level isn't expected. Which doesn't matter in beginner dungeons, but is actually so frustrating during anything after 50. And most critique is handwoven because something something my personal playstyle.

[Awha]

I agree with you and I do the same, but I still feel like a certain pressure should be put on people to play at a certain level, obviously not to a stressful degree.

That's probably the biggest annoyance about this game for me, that even playing at an average level isn't expected. Which doesn't matter in beginner dungeons, but is actually so frustrating during anything after 50. And most critique is handwoven because something something my personal playstyle.

This is true, I was doing cutters cry via leveling, and our tank could not even hold aggro so they healer just kept me alive as a drg tank even during wall to wall pulls and did not even bother to acknowledge the tank after they ignored requests to use their AoE. I think a part of the problem is that through the leveling process groups generally are capable of making up for massive defects in terms of how one plays just through sheer power of the abilities. People can get away with a lot of mistakes throughout the leveling process well up to level 80 just through a combination of skill, and gear.

The game provides very little reason for someone to take the time to learn how to properly play their role. Too many methods to bypass the need to learn either from the community or devs.

[MelodyCrystel]

Yeah no, that's bad play/griefing and it's outing yourself as a party dictator (it's also slowing the run down).

You are so incapable of understanding a rule of politeness (which seemed standard / normal when I was new) as one, that it's outright baffling to me.

If I'm the tank, I decide how much is pulled. If someone else is the tank, they decide the amount of mobs. It's as simple as that.

This philosophy has nothing to do with dictatorship (and you even going that far to put it that way makes me wonder several things); it's all about how much a tank has the courage to hold larger groups and / or if they trust the present healer.

If people find it amusing to willingly mess with that just because they are in a rush or whatever reason they may have, they deserve to get the aggro they provoked. Rushers can tank themselves or pick a friend to do so if they aren't able to cope with different kinds of tanks.

[ForteNightshade]

Nope, doing big pulls has nothing to do with competency. You can argue that being able to handle a big pull is basic competency, but actually doing big pulls or not has nothing to do with competency.


Unlike you I will claim that doing big pulls is actually a bad habit and sloppy tactics only made possible because enemies are weak.
Pulling big when the opponents actually are dangerous will result in a wipe, and is therefore a bad habit to get into.
Good tactics is to minimize the danger of each fight - hence small pulls are good tactics. That doing small pulls means the run takes a few minutes longer is of not important.

Doing really big pulls just means fights get more chaotic. Chaotic fights are bad.

This is inherently contradictory. If enemies are weak, then large pulls are not dangerous. Furthermore, sloppy tactics implies bad. If big pulls can be handled with minimal to no risk whatsoever, then they aren't sloppy. It being not only possible but considerably easy alone defeats your entire argument.

Minimizing danger only matters if you're actually in danger. A small pull deals such meager damage, DPS could tank it themselves. In fact, when I do have tanks who pull small, I literally do not heal them. No Regen, Benison or Solace. Nothing. I sit there and spam Holy or Glare. The damage is that low. To be fair, I barely heal the large pulls in most Expert dungeons but those at least require some cooldowns. It also shaves off more than a few minutes. There's a reason Trusts take upwards of forty minutes while that same dungeon with a decent party mass pulling and AoEing can be done in twenty.

Big pulls are only chaotic if the tank or healer doesn't know how to handle them. They really should by 50; 60 at the absolute latest. With only a handful of exceptions, most big pulls have very little risk involved assuming the players are remotely competent.

You are so incapable of understanding a rule of politeness (which seemed standard / normal when I was new) as one, that it's outright baffling to me.

If I'm the tank, I decide how much is pulled. If someone else is the tank, they decide the amount of mobs. It's as simple as that.

This philosophy has nothing to do with dictatorship (and you even going that far to put it that way makes me wonder several things); it's all about how much a tank has the courage to hold larger groups and / or if they trust the present healer.

If people find it amusing to willingly mess with that just because they are in a rush or whatever reason they may have, they deserve to get the aggro they provoked. Rushers can tank themselves or pick a friend to do so if they aren't able to cope with different kinds of tanks.

This makes you a dictator. Your preference trumps upwards of three other people, including the healer whose really the main factor here. If they, especially, tell you to pull more or even pull for you. Well, their the ones responsible for your HP. Refusing to pull off them and allowing the entire group to wipe as a result is simply you being petty. Frankly, I'd Vote Kick you long before the person pulling because only you've disrupted the run. Those extra mobs didn't cause a wipe. You did. You can make whatever justification you want but at the end of the day, you let the healer die (in this hypothetical) which directly led to us all wiping.

Politeness is not purposely wiping the group because you're mad. Either ask the person not to pull, take it as an opportunity to test yourself (and if you wipe, you get to blame them. Win/Win, really) or Vote Kick if they keep going on ahead. All of those are better alternatives than puffing your chest and refusing to do your job.

[Burmecia]

Then don't rush. Talk the talk and walk the walk. But you'll be doing what you like, and I guess that way it will get easier for you to find the likeminded people.
But not everyone is going to like your style. And people like myself are going to remain phlegmatic, because I never considered this be-all and end-all sort of thing. 20 min dungeon vs 50 min dungeon.
I see the difference, but fuk do I not care. First is likely being played by group of seasoned players, second having someone having to take afk break, both tank and healer being first times and just generally new to their roles, wipes in more than one boss and whatever.
I am jumping into unknown when jumping into DF. Trying to control chaos takes too much fukin energy, so instead I adjust to it.
And please, do not come up with second part for this thread: " I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like certain people not agreeing with my playstyle."