I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[MistakeNot]

If the tank is not showing basic competency, no, I'm not going to offer advice; I'm going to force the issue. Again, no one should be asking for, negioiating, or whatever else, basic competency. If a tank cannot demonstrate basic competency, they should do us all a favour and not queue.

Doing big pulls is not showing basic competency. It is showing impatience.
Players who insist on big pulls should do the tanking themselves - that way they get to decide the size of pulls.

[Eli85]

Doing big pulls is not showing basic competency. It is showing impatience.
Players who insist on big pulls should do the tanking themselves - that way they get to decide the size of pulls.

No, it's basic competency. Most tanks do employ basic competency. Those who do not make it miserable for the rest of the group. Why should the tank be more important than the rest of the group?

It's not about competency. I's about the comfort of the group. If you don't want to talk to people to ensure yours and their comfort and prefer stress, well, I'm sorry for you.

It is nothing to do with comfort. The tanks that do single pulls are playing the game very, very badly. You do not want to justify bad play, ever.

[Vahlnir]

No, it's basic competency. Most tanks do employ basic competency. Those who do not make it miserable for the rest of the group. Why should the tank be more important than the rest of the group?



It is nothing to do with comfort. The tanks that do single pulls are playing the game very, very badly. You do not want to justify bad play, ever.

The one thing you are leaving out is circumstance and points of view. Is the healer capable? Are the dps able to put out reasonable numbers? A lot of the time it takes an outside perspective to see such things. I'm all for large pulls, I sort of have to be, not that I have an issue with them anyway. However, a good tank also needs to learn how to read a room. Big pulls mean nothing if your healer and dps is subpar for pulls like that. And like I said, that is a bit easier to see from the outside looking in. Your default argument is "small pulls bad, big pulls good, git gud scrubs or git out". That's nice, how about you take various factors into account? It's not as black and white as you think.

[Eli85]

The one thing you are leaving out is circumstance and points of view. Is the healer capable? Are the dps able to put out reasonable numbers? A lot of the time it takes an outside perspective to see such things. I'm all for large pulls, I sort of have to be, not that I have an issue with them anyway. However, a good tank also needs to learn how to read a room. Big pulls mean nothing if your healer and dps is subpar for pulls like that. And like I said, that is a bit easier to see from the outside looking in. Your default argument is "small pulls bad, big pulls good, git gud scrubs or git out". That's nice, how about you take various factors into account? It's not as black and white as you think.

In this game, you don't need any high skill ceiling DPS and healers to pull it off. You just need players who are not complete turds. Middling healers and DPS will not cause problems with large pulls. I do most of my Expert Roulette as my WHM, and even with big pulls, unless I fall asleep on the couch or lag out, the tank never dies. I've even been in groups with sub-par DPS, and nothing ever comes close to a wipe.

This game is not hard. It's brain dead easy on everything not named Savage. Big pulls should never be a stressful experience for any tank, unless they literally have no clue what their buttons do.

[SenorPatty]

In this game, you don't need any high skill ceiling DPS and healers to pull it off. You just need players who are not complete turds. Middling healers and DPS will not cause problems with large pulls. I do most of my Expert Roulette as my WHM, and even with big pulls, unless I fall asleep on the couch or lag out, the tank never dies. I've even been in groups with sub-par DPS, and nothing ever comes close to a wipe.

This game is not hard. It's brain dead easy on everything not named Savage. Big pulls should never be a stressful experience for any tank, unless they literally have no clue what their buttons do.

But then, that's just something you put up with--the subpar dps and healing--because your threshold is not wiping. Some people, like me, would rather just re-adjust to single pulls because why go the extra mile of mass pulling if no else in the party won't and/or can't put the effort in? That wouldn't make me garbage, I'm just reading room and adjusting accordingly.

[Vahlnir]

But then, that's just something you put up with--the subpar dps and healing--because your threshold is not wiping. Some people, like me, would rather just re-adjust to single pulls because why go the extra mile of mass pulling if no else in the party won't and/or can't put the effort in? That wouldn't make me garbage, I'm just reading room and adjusting accordingly.

There we go, someone else gets it.

[Euphares]

But then, that's just something you put up with--the subpar dps and healing--because your threshold is not wiping. Some people, like me, would rather just re-adjust to single pulls because why go the extra mile of mass pulling if no else in the party won't and/or can't put the effort in? That wouldn't make me garbage, I'm just reading room and adjusting accordingly.

I agree with you and I do the same, but I still feel like a certain pressure should be put on people to play at a certain level, obviously not to a stressful degree.

That's probably the biggest annoyance about this game for me, that even playing at an average level isn't expected. Which doesn't matter in beginner dungeons, but is actually so frustrating during anything after 50. And most critique is handwoven because something something my personal playstyle.

[Awha]

I agree with you and I do the same, but I still feel like a certain pressure should be put on people to play at a certain level, obviously not to a stressful degree.

That's probably the biggest annoyance about this game for me, that even playing at an average level isn't expected. Which doesn't matter in beginner dungeons, but is actually so frustrating during anything after 50. And most critique is handwoven because something something my personal playstyle.

This is true, I was doing cutters cry via leveling, and our tank could not even hold aggro so they healer just kept me alive as a drg tank even during wall to wall pulls and did not even bother to acknowledge the tank after they ignored requests to use their AoE. I think a part of the problem is that through the leveling process groups generally are capable of making up for massive defects in terms of how one plays just through sheer power of the abilities. People can get away with a lot of mistakes throughout the leveling process well up to level 80 just through a combination of skill, and gear.

The game provides very little reason for someone to take the time to learn how to properly play their role. Too many methods to bypass the need to learn either from the community or devs.

[Townowi]

Maybe the hardest of the game is actually the oldest content (as far as dungeons are concerned). Maybe the devs focused too hard on bosses to provide any challenge to that content.

I used to play a different game where you would try pulling wall-to-wall and wipe long before you reach the boss (then again, in my old game, gear counts for much less than in FF14, and that's what I liked most about it) but trash is still light on mechanics. But I digress.

Maybe it would sound radical to you but removing the mobs from dungeons may be a viable option that won't affect how hard content is. Now I am not sure about how well-liked a trash-free dungeon would be, but it would work only with the right story premise. Possible premises for trash-free dungeons include:

1) Bosses being destitute or depleted logistically
2) A spell has been cast on it beforehand to whose effects bosses (and possibly adds) are immune but would-be trash isn't
3) Bosses seem to consider mobs useless against the party
4) Bosses hold back mobs until the party reaches a point deemed strategically important enough for a boss fight, thereby lulling the party in a false sense of security
5) Bosses being the last survivors of a catastrophe that befell the area
6) A distraction pulls would-be trash away (much like in Castrum Meridianum/Pretorium but more effective as a distraction)

[linayar]

Maybe the hardest of the game is actually the oldest content (as far as dungeons are concerned). Maybe the devs focused too hard on bosses to provide any challenge to that content.

I used to play a different game where you would try pulling wall-to-wall and wipe long before you reach the boss (then again, in my old game, gear counts for much less than in FF14, and that's what I liked most about it) but trash is still light on mechanics. But I digress.

Maybe it would sound radical to you but removing the mobs from dungeons may be a viable option that won't affect how hard content is. Now I am not sure about how well-liked a trash-free dungeon would be, but it would work only with the right story premise. Possible premises for trash-free dungeons include:

1) Bosses being destitute or depleted logistically
2) A spell has been cast on it beforehand to whose effects bosses (and possibly adds) are immune but would-be trash isn't
3) Bosses seem to consider mobs useless against the party
4) Bosses hold back mobs until the party reaches a point deemed strategically important enough for a boss fight, thereby lulling the party in a false sense of security
5) Bosses being the last survivors of a catastrophe that befell the area
6) A distraction pulls would-be trash away (much like in Castrum Meridianum/Pretorium but more effective as a distraction)

I like that raids have no trash before fighting the boss, and I think I'd love it if dungeons also have no mobs, and are just a series of boss encounters with puzzles to solve in between.