I'm gonna say something unpopular: I don't like to rush.

[LittleImp]

Value as a player isn't the issue. The faster you can clear the more valuable you are; most people wouldn't deny that.

Alright, fast clears = value to the majority of people then.

If someone decides they'd rather take a slower approach then they probably don't care that much about your value assessment. You're just not very important.

Decides implies intention. This hypothetical person is now intentionally playing the game in a way that is considered of inferior value by the majority of people, as we've just established. They're also doing so out of a hypothetical lack of care for other people. Sounds like a pleasant person.

That's kind of my issue with this. I'll generally wall to wall in endgame dungeons, but when someone in a video game tells me I'm not ALLOWED to do anything else... that doesn't set well. Acting like your preference is an in-game rule that you have the authority to enforce on everybody is just bratty nonsense that turns people against you.

If fast clears are valuable, it's not surprising that people are going to have a strong preference for them. While it may not be a hard in-game rule, if the majority of the party is unhappy with a small-pulling tank in endgame content, they can and should excercise their right to vote-kick. Fortunately, I do most of my roulettes with a kicking majority and usually tank them anyway. If obstinately bad players turn against me, I see that as an added bonus.

Most groups don't care if the tank isn't pulling wall to wall. Even when single pulling an instance rarely takes more than 20-25 minutes. The people losing their minds over this are a minority of wannabe elitists.

I've played this game in voip with hundreds of different people over the years, covering the entire gamut of skill levels and interests. While they may not say anything in game, I can tell you that the majority of people will at least groan and roll their eyes when they get a single pulling tank in endgame roulettes.

EXTREMELY casual players are capable of pulling off wall-to-wall pulls with minimal effort and a basic understanding of their job. Having a vocal preference for playing the game in an extremely accessible and efficient way doesn't make you an elitist.

[Goji1639]

Alright, fast clears = value to the majority of people then.


Decides implies intention. This hypothetical person is now intentionally playing the game in a way that is considered of inferior value by the majority of people, as we've just established. They're also doing so out of a hypothetical lack of care for other people. Sounds like a pleasant person.




If fast clears are valuable, it's not surprising that people are going to have a strong preference for them. While it may not be a hard in-game rule, if the majority of the party is unhappy with a small-pulling tank in endgame content, they can and should excercise their right to vote-kick. Fortunately, I do most of my roulettes with a kicking majority and usually tank them anyway. If obstinately bad players turn against me, I see that as an added bonus.


I've played this game in voip with hundreds of different people over the years, covering the entire gamut of skill levels and interests. While they may not say anything in game, I can tell you that the majority of people will at least groan and roll their eyes when they get a single pulling tank in endgame roulettes.

EXTREMELY casual players are capable of pulling off wall-to-wall pulls with minimal effort and a basic understanding of their job. Having a vocal preference for playing the game in an extremely accessible and efficient way doesn't make you an elitist.

I said "wannabe" elitist; I think referring to the people who try to bigshot in roulettes as elitist is a little generous.

Tanks may decide not to take the fastest approach possible for a lot of reasons. Roll your eyes all you want. Hell, even politely request bigger pulls and if they say no then take it to vote kick, if you care enough to make it an issue. The majority of people don't even care enough to type a polite request, though.

The tantrums and attitude we see on these forums, and rarely in dungeons, are from a minority of WANNABE elitists who just need content to feel elite in. Savage probably didn't work out, so they queue up for easy mode and wait for someone to play a little lazy or not know what they're doing. Then once they have some ammo it's straight to the forums to use the word bad a couple 100 times and hope for a pat on the head.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm above letting people die, but I'm not above giving them a scare. I totally plan to save someone who pulled for me...but only after they've taken some damage themselves. Usually that puts a stop to it without ever having to say a word and without slowing things down. Straight up letting people die though because of this is indeed petty.

See, that doesn't really work. If I happen to pull aggro, I'll just pop Bloodbath and/or Second Wind. Three extra mobs aren't usually enough to do anything significant they wouldn't be nearly dead by that point. From a healer perspective, I actually like DPS taking a smack or two. Less autos on tank and I'll catch them with Assize/Indom/Star anywho. Or they can just sit at half HP. As long as the tank rounds them up at some point, they can sit at 1% for all I care. This tactic will only scare Range DPS but they can just kite them around to avoid autos.

At the end of the day, it's still pettiness. But if you're pulling at least two packs, you aren't going to see many people pull ahead of you. So it's rather a moot point.

[Vahlnir]

See, that doesn't really work. If I happen to pull aggro, I'll just pop Bloodbath and/or Second Wind. Three extra mobs aren't usually enough to do anything significant they wouldn't be nearly dead by that point. From a healer perspective, I actually like DPS taking a smack or two. Less autos on tank and I'll catch them with Assize/Indom/Star anywho. Or they can just sit at half HP. As long as the tank rounds them up at some point, they can sit at 1% for all I care. This tactic will only scare Range DPS but they can just kite them around to avoid autos.

At the end of the day, it's still pettiness. But if you're pulling at least two packs, you aren't going to see many people pull ahead of you. So it's rather a moot point.

If it's petty, that's fine. I respect your opinion. I just don't take kindly to other people stepping on my toes for no reason (and yes, I view it as unnecessary when I'm tanking) so I handle things the way I see fit. If I have slowed down at all, it is for a good reason and the person pulling apparently didn't get the memo. Like I said before though, it's a rare occurrence, so for the most part it's a non issue seeing as I pull big anyway. But in the off chance it does...it actually does seem to work as intended, petty or not. The DF is like most aspects of life. It isn't necessarily yourself you have to worry about, it's the others around you. If I know I'm doing everything right then I have nothing to prove. Just don't step on my toes and all will be well! That's really my only expectation. I let others do their jobs, so let me do mine. I suppose this might have come across as arrogant, but that's not my intention. It is confidence. I am open to criticism though and I'm always looking to do better, so if anyone has anything to say...they can feel free to speak up. If they don't then that's on them.

[kelevra13]

The party's "governing system" must be a democracy, so if majority wishes to go slow/fast, minority should leave or oblige.

That being said, I don't think that going slower is bad per se. Some people like to take it chilly, or maybe are tired after work, or whatever else. They have right for it too, and both approaches to dungeoneering are equally fine.

I agree with this. How you or any party member go about the dungeon must be agreed upon by the majority. I'd go as far as say that it has to be unanimous because if one person doesn't want to do something and everyone else agrees to that something, the run would not be fun to those who disagree. They'd be forced to abandon or start griefing and get kicked. Of course, they might just roll with it, so it really depends. Bottomline is that most in the party should agree on how to go about dungeons, raids, etc.

[Valic]

It doesn't, actually. The community standard is speed pulling and pulling as much as possible. If it's clear that the party is trying to go quickly, pull large, and can handle it, yet the tank is being stuck up and pulling small and/or being slow, then the DPS or healer pulling is completely fine and is frankly something that they should do in that circumstance. If you don't want impatient healers/DPS pulling for you as the tank, well, maybe you should speed tf up so they don't have a reason to outpace you.

You're talking about someone outright refusing to be optimal on purpose. That is not the same as someone trying their best, wanting to enjoy the content, or simply not up to par in gear. The former implies the person perfectly knows they're hindering someone or the party. In general, the "community's standard" is not "everyone's" standard unfortunately. Regardless of the population being 99% to 1% in favor of your odds, the fact is... there is a difference and it is recognized by the developers and the game's ToS(and believe it or not, some of the community). Unfortunately, it does in fact go both ways regardless of the population. We've had minorities in games before and had their opinions heard, we've had minorities IRL too... You can't ignore them because they're the minority (or at least what you THINK are the minority).


Everyone else quoting me seems to think people not pulling everything implies they're purposefully hindering a group or being a problem for the purpose of being a problem too... This is incorrect. I can drive my car slow to piss off the person behind me, or I'm driving my car slow because I feel unsafe where I'm driving or unsure, or I'm wanting to see something around me.... In the end of that metaphor, so long as you're not purposefully causing an issue, it isn't an issue. Someone wanting to take their time in content or NOT rush is not the same as someone opting to torture your party to watch them suffer. The big difference is, YOU decide how you get these parties.. Duty roulette is not at your whim, you are at its. Which again, all you need is communication. I can't believe how hard people fight OTHER PEOPLE'S PLAYSTYLE for content they can clear regardless. Worry about your damn selves ffs.

[RajNish]

Tank pulling slowly is the same thing as a BLM playing as the infamous ice mage.

Following this logic, as a more experienced player, you can give advice or ask to do big pulls, instead of running ahead and forcing, making the game stressful. Do you feel the difference?

There are people on the other side of the monitor too. They may not know something or not be able to. But this is not a reason for pressure, it is a reason to start a dialogue.

[WaxSw]

You may not like it but its the meta for logical reasons:

1: Going fast makes AoE tools more valuable, more mobs equals more dps for each time you press an AoE, this is especially useful in healer's case since AoEs are one of the most MP draining tools on their kit so the less they have to press the better and the best way to minimize that number is by making them more efficient having larger pulls

2: Going fast also makes cooldowns a better tool, a cooldown gains value in HP the more damage it mitigates, by having largers pulls you're making your cooldowns mitigate bigger numbers and therefore getting more HP value out of them than smaller pulls

3: Smaller pulls makes tanks and healers roles unnecessary, when you pull small you either don't need a tank to do those pulls or a tank that is doing their job need barely any healing, on a game that forces you to have those two roles in a party I'd say that a playstyle that makes them unnecessary is disrespectful as you're making their experience worse.

4: Mobs are boring for the vast majority of players so the longer you take fighting them the worse you make the experience for your party

5: You have to pay a subscription therefore the time you play has a monetary value, making things take more than the expected devalue that time, at the same time you don't know if other players want or have the time to go slow so imposing a slow playstyle can be hindering, especially when the option of trusts exists for those who want to go slow.

I saw someone making a metaphor with cars and using something similar I'd say that going slow in this game is like being on a road where everyone is going at 90 km/h but then you start going at 50 Km/h it isn't forbidden and the other drivers may not care but there is a high chance that other drivers have to adjust to you, therefore making their driving experience something more stressful and worse and when doing that a crash may happen, basically adjust your playstyle at what its expected from you and if for some reason you want to do something that is outside the norm communicate with your party and make sure the majority agrees.
In the end everyone decides the pace of a dungeon not only one person and that applies both for those who want to go at 50Km/h as well as those who want to go at 150 Km/h

[RajNish]

I saw someone making a metaphor with cars and using something similar I'd say that going slow in this game is like being on a road where everyone is going at 90 km/h but then you start going at 50 Km/h it isn't forbidden and the other drivers may not care but there is a high chance that other drivers have to adjust to you, therefore making their driving experience something more stressful and worse and when doing that a crash may happen, basically adjust your playstyle at what its expected from you and if for some reason you want to do something that is outside the norm communicate with your party and make sure the majority agrees.
In the end everyone decides the pace of a dungeon not only one person and that applies both for those who want to go at 50Km/h as well as those who want to go at 150 Km/h

This is the wrong metaphor. Because:

1. In fact, there is no speed limits for the dungeons.

2. Unlike a highway, there are only four of you and you can easily negotiate the speed.

3. Nobody's real safety or life depends on the speed of the run.

4. You can always leave this road and nothing will happen.

[Solarra]

I love a speed-run with a competent group who are geared for it. Unfortunately DF doesn't always give you that.

I'd rather a tank pulled a little less than suffer repeated wipes due to them trying to pull more than the healer and/or dps can manage. Similarly, if the tank isn't comfortable, I'd rather the healer and dps didn't run ahead and pull more.
It's not efficient to try and force a speed-run when people can't cope, it just makes the run slower. People throwing tantrums because wall to wall didn't work out, is a waste of time too, but sadly all too common (especially during content lulls like now, don't know why but it seems to shorten tempers).

Recently I had the pleasure of running Arum Vale with a tank who tried large pulls in the first room, failed, and then proceeded to wipe the party twice more by doing exactly the same thing before we managed to squeak though on attempt four. The rest of the dungeon didn't go smoothly either and of course it took way longer than it should have.
As a dps, I'll usually keep my head down and stick with a party like that because penalty+queue time probably means I might not get another run that evening if I bail. However, it would be nice if people didn't just blindly go with the meta in DF but actually adjusted to the rest of the group.