"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

So what I'm hearing is that instead of giving advice, we should tell them positive things.

"hey, great job playing incorrectly!


Look, a positive message.

[Zsolen]

You do realize the others players in the party likely know already, and it is not embarrassing to not know how to do something. Those that react negatively to advice should be embarrassed by their own attitudes, if anything.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Snideness aside, no one knows they are doing something badly.

Exactly- and that seems the case with all the people claiming they're giving polite, good advice yet constantly being treated like they're being rude. They clearly have no idea that they're not nearly as polite or constructive as they think they are.

They have to be told or shown, otherwise they're going to continue as they were. The phrase "If it ain't broke" exists for a reason. They don't realize that the way they are playing is bad, and need to be told what they are doing wrong. For instance, I had a ninja who never used Trick Attack, one of the core aspects of the class. I had to tell them "Hey, if you use Suiton, it'll let you do Trick Attack, which raises everyone's damage" before they actually started using it. All they needed was a push. No one is going to zone into an instance with "I want advice", and the thought that you think they would is naive, at best.

I've seen plenty of players ask for advice, largely on forums or guides because they're actively looking for ways to get better, or through a guild, or through a premade. Of course, those numbers pale in comparison to the amount of elitists who have given unwanted 'advice' that is rarely helpful and even more rarely polite- perhaps because elitists have a tendency of honing in on the weakest link or newest player and doing all they can to make them feel unwelcome. If there's a reason asking for help isn't as common as it should be it stems from the consistent, abusive way elite players treat newbies in online games. If you actually want to help players, but are utterly unwilling to GAF about what that player wants before you start telling them how bad they are at the game- then you probably don't actually want to help players out and use the guise of 'polite advice' as an excuse to be toxic, so you can turn around and act shocked that your unwanted advice wasn't kindly received.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

Or. And here me out. Or. There's a swath of toxic casual players that are growing the longer this content drought and quarantine go on, based solely on the fact that there isn't much else to do. And it's becoming increasingly common and frustrating to have to deal with these on a daily basis when it can be fixed with the slightest bit of concern for the people you are playing with in a massively multiplayer online RPG.

If only there were ways to avoid toxic casual players by making premade groups to do content. Thing is- there is, if you think you're better form a group with others that also think they're better. Fighting toxic casualism with toxic elitism and thinking you're the better one is laughable, and the reason you are getting such negative pushback is because it shows. As you said before- nobody knows they are doing something badly- you are doing something badly, giving advice, and rather than trying to learn from it you're under the impression that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Then you complain that these casuals are playing poorly and not learning from others- how can you not see the irony?

By giving unwanted advice without caring what the other player wants from the game, you have made a decision to do something you know can be frowned upon. I'm not saying that you should never give others advice or point out flaws, and if you do so in a polite, helpful way you are going to get through to more people and even if you piss the target off chances are the other members of the party will agree with you. But, you're still giving unwanted advice- doing so and being shocked that some people aren't going to take it well is beyond absurd. You should be going into it with the expectation that some people will be just as uncaring to what you want from the game when you give advice as you are to the person you're publicly shaming.

[RosaryLove]

snip

This example is still out of bounds, a slight adjustment should make it better if the context is changed: Everyone that's part of the sleepover has seen the friend wet the bed, maybe even multiple times. Maybe one person doesn't care about the bedwetting, another is indifferent, another one eggs on the bedwetting, thinking it's fine, and another one dislikes the bedwetting. That person has to bring up the problem of the bedwetting in order to help said friend take care of it, as the bedwetting affects everyone that is taking part in the sleepover.

Under your premise, the friend that finally decides to speak up about it is rude and broadcasting the problem, because they didn't take the friend aside in order to help them with the issue, despite the fact that everyone can see what they're doing, and despite this being a "public" issue in which the four friends all know about the "problem" but have different opinions on its seriousness.

It would be best for the bedwetter to get someone who cares about the issue and wants to solve the problem, would it not? That way other people that sleepover don't also experience the same discomfort. This would create more opportunities for the bedwetter to make sleepovers a better experience for all involved, so that no one else has to speak up or in your words, embarass them.

Remember, people are not advocating for ultimate levels of play, they're advocating for people to properly understand their toolkits in order to correctly respond to the things the game throws at you. This means expecting Scholars to understand that physick isn't better than Lustrate, or for White Mages that are spamming Cure 3 on the tank instead of Cure 2. Under the time crunch that is not having complete control over the actions of party members, it is sometimes unlikely that you can fully explain why something is better, and a blunt statement is given due to a tank continuing to pull, or mechanics. The issue lies upon the interpretation of statements over text, and the utter refusal of some to accept advice on how to properly utilize the toolkits that they are given. As we are not able to ascertain the affects our words may have on someone, any and all things we type can be understood differently tonally and distorted in meaning. Thus it lies on everyone to be more open to words of advice, even if one disagrees with them, because the ultimate goal in a mmo that relies heavily on team play, should be to aid your allies and make the experience as smooth and stressless as possible.
To be frank, if you are playing a multiplayer mmo and don't want to play with your team, then why are you playing a team based mmo? Wouldn't single player games be better suited towards someone who wants to march to their own drum? Of course they're still allowed to play an mmo, but they shouldn't be combative and angry at those team members for commenting on their play and offering advice.

[KalinOrthos]

It's not a false equivalency, it's perfectly apt. The only element that needs to be present for it to fit this context is embarrassment, which it provides in a way that's simple for all of you to grasp. Through that example it's made clear WHY causing public embarrassment for a person isn't the best way to approach offering criticism. Do it in private.

for dear life

And, in this context "public" refers to the group you're in. If you're on a team there are certain things you do in front of the team and certain things you do in private with individual members of the team. When offering criticism you do it in private. Doing it in front of the team is demoralizing and embarrassing.

If I'm on a group project with other people and someone is actively doing things that make the project run worse, you'd be foolish not to address it. What matters is the urgency in which you do. In an instance, whispers are disabled, and if you are to seek the person out afterwards, I don't know about you, but that strikes me as pretty f***ing creepy, especially when people do so anyways trying to slide into my DMs. It's faster and better to just state it in party chat. That's just a fact. Maybe you should stop taking any sort of critique of your play as a personal attack.

[Goji1639]

snip

I didn't say that YOU control if they're positive or negative. I said that pointing out a flaw is always negative, and congratulating success is positive. These are facts. When addressing something that's factually negative you do it in private. Peoples interpretations don't come into play at all.

Also, I'm not saying players can't handle criticism in public. A lot of people will handle it just fine if you do something rude. The point is that it's still rude, so don't act confused when some players AREN'T fine with it.

Also, I'm not backtracking anything. You're just trying avoid the point by focusing on irrelevant semantics. Every time you try to hyper-focus on a semantic I can adjust the example to null your semantic and still not lose the point, because the objections you're bringing up are just hot air. Like your latest semantic; it could be a full on conversation about bedwetting where some of them may not have been aware of this persons issue, and your advice informing everyone would be rude.

If I'm on a group project with other people and someone is actively doing things that make the project run worse, you'd be foolish not to address it. What matters is the urgency in which you do. In an instance, whispers are disabled, and if you are to seek the person out afterwards, I don't know about you, but that strikes me as pretty f***ing creepy, especially when people do so anyways trying to slide into my DMs. It's faster and better to just state it in party chat. That's just a fact. Maybe you should stop taking any sort of critique of your play as a personal attack.

It's only faster to do it in front of the group, not better. If you find the alternative creepy then that's a personal issue.

I also never said anything about a personal attack. It's just rude. If someone in the group responds to your public criticism like you're being rude it's because that's what you're doing.

[Zsolen]

Exactly- and that seems the case with all the people claiming they're giving polite, good advice yet constantly being treated like they're being rude. They clearly have no idea that they're not nearly as polite or constructive as they think they are.

People are not saying they always get rude responses. The responses typically vary. Some are quite thankful. I've been thanked over advice on pve, pvp, tradecraft, FC stuff, gardening, and even glamouring and squadrons.

If only there were ways to avoid toxic casual players by making premade groups to do content. Thing is- there is, if you think you're better form a group with others that also think they're better. Fighting toxic casualism with toxic elitism and thinking you're the better one is laughable, and the reason you are getting such negative pushback is because it shows. As you said before- nobody knows they are doing something badly- you are doing something badly, giving advice, and rather than trying to learn from it you're under the impression that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Then you complain that these casuals are playing poorly and not learning from others- how can you not see the irony?

Why should players making an effort to do that? To reverse what someone said previously, one knows that when they use df they are going to run into people that expect them to try. Maybe they should make a low effort pf instead. Asking healers to do damage is not wrong. Even squadron healers do it. People are giving advice on very basic things. They should really expand upon the smith training, but the player base should also be there to pick up the slack.

[Goji1639]

snip

Your underlying assumption here is that everyone in the group was already aware there was a problem, and knew exactly who was at fault. That's generally not a fair assumption. I, for instance, have everyone else's spell effects turned off, and for the most part am not aware of who is and isn't playing optimally.

Hell, most people probably don't even know other classes well enough to notice flaws if someone else doesn't point them out.

[KalinOrthos]

Exactly- and that seems the case with all the people claiming they're giving polite, good advice yet constantly being treated like they're being rude. They clearly have no idea that they're not nearly as polite or constructive as they think they are.

"no u" stopped being a relevant argument when we reached high school. Considering that I personally have seen far more instances of advice, whether given by me or by another, being thought of as a personal attack, than elitists treating players who don't know how to play optimally like garbage, I'm far more likely to believe y'all just need to stop treating advice like a personal attack.

I've seen plenty of players ask for advice, largely on forums or guides because they're actively looking for ways to get better, or through a guild, or through a premade. Of course, those numbers pale in comparison to the amount of elitists who have given unwanted 'advice' that is rarely helpful and even more rarely polite- perhaps because elitists have a tendency of honing in on the weakest link or newest player and doing all they can to make them feel unwelcome. If there's a reason asking for help isn't as common as it should be it stems from the consistent, abusive way elite players treat newbies in online games. If you actually want to help players, but are utterly unwilling to GAF about what that player wants before you start telling them how bad they are at the game- then you probably don't actually want to help players out and use the guise of 'polite advice' as an excuse to be toxic, so you can turn around and act shocked that your unwanted advice wasn't kindly received.

Again, I can't emphasize enough just how much "no u" isn't a relevant argument. No one, literally no one, is saying that toxic elitists don't deserve to be kicked to the curb. They do. And they often are. But you are equating someone saying "hey, tank, you'll be a lot better if you use your defensive cooldown to survive those wall-to-wall pulls better" to someone saying "LISTEN F**KER, USE YOUR COOLDOWNS OR YOULL BE REPORTED". Which...is absurd in the utmost.

If only there were ways to avoid toxic casual players by making premade groups to do content. Thing is- there is, if you think you're better form a group with others that also think they're better. Fighting toxic casualism with toxic elitism and thinking you're the better one is laughable, and the reason you are getting such negative pushback is because it shows. As you said before- nobody knows they are doing something badly- you are doing something badly, giving advice, and rather than trying to learn from it you're under the impression that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Then you complain that these casuals are playing poorly and not learning from others- how can you not see the irony?

Because there is no irony. We aren't advocating toxic elitism. No one is. You're misrepresenting the argument. That's all you've been doing. We're advocating that being told how to play better isn't a personal attack, and that it needs to stop being treated as such. Your side consistently, repeatedly misrepresents the argument that we're asking, nay DEMANDING that you play as if you were in Savage, and not a single person has stated this. Stop misrepresenting the argument. Read what we are saying. Consider what we are saying. We are actually saying that those toxic elitists your railing against? Yeah, we don't like them either, get rid of them. But we're also saying maybe actually consider the people you are playing with when you play a game meant to be played with other people.

By giving unwanted advice without caring what the other player wants from the game, you have made a decision to do something you know can be frowned upon. I'm not saying that you should never give others advice or point out flaws, and if you do so in a polite, helpful way you are going to get through to more people and even if you piss the target off chances are the other members of the party will agree with you. But, you're still giving unwanted advice- doing so and being shocked that some people aren't going to take it well is beyond absurd. You should be going into it with the expectation that some people will be just as uncaring to what you want from the game when you give advice as you are to the person you're publicly shaming.

Again, misrepresenting the argument. No one is shocked at this point when people react to the advice we give with anger and rage. They're just ignored. But we should still be pushing for a baseline level of competence, just for the sake of the people we play with. If I get on an elevator, I know better than to loose some gas in that enclosed area. If I get on a bus, I know better than to turn my music up. If I'm asked to do a job at work, I know better than to stand around and watch my coworkers do all the work for me. We're asking for consideration for other people.