"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

[Goji1639]

snip

The positive and negative aren't things outside your control and they aren't things that are interpreted by either person. When point out a flaw that's a negative, and when pointing out good performance that's a positive. That isn't subjective; and in terms of team etiquette in most situations you're supposed to address a negative in private. To do it any other way is confrontational and only serves to single out and embarrass the person you're attempting to communicate with. Anyone who's worked with a team at a professional level will tell you this; it's incredibly basic.

Now the obvious exception is addressing a problem that needs to be addressed with immediacy, where you don't have the luxury of a more courteous approach. That's not just "a problem you see," it's a problem you feel has to be immediately dealt with right then and there. I don't think many of you are very good at making the distinction between "this is important" and "this is just bothering me" when deciding to be discourteous.

Also, as for my extreme example, again you're just playing at semantics. Pretend I'm one of his friends then, thoroughly involved in their conversation, and decided to blurt out some well intended but completely tactless advice about his bedwetting. Maybe the advice would help our "sleepover" be more comfortable for everyone involved. I'd still be a complete dick to do it right in front of all of his friends, who may or may not have noticed his problem.

[Daibunnie]

Basically we're looking at a situation where we have olympic level swimmers (or even just experienced swimmers) wandering into a kiddy pool and wondering why no one is even trying to do laps.

Yes, aoeing a group of adds or dpsing as a healer are clearly ultimate levels of play.

Would it be nice if the lowest tier of players played better and cared more? Sure, but there's nothing in the actual game that compels them to if they don't already bring that attitude to the game.

I really don't understand this comment. You're saying there's nothing in the game that compels people to play better, but you had all those complaint threads on content such as Thunder God, Mist Dragon, Aurum Vale, and even the 3 buttom msq instance in stormblood to which they were either nerfed or received an easy mode option. Not to mention, savage/ultimate content is always available.

[Zsolen]

A healer that only heals is also not doing their job. One of the best mitigation techniques in both pve and pvp is to crowd control an/or eliminate the source of the damage. Healing only is a clear/win in spite of the healer, if there is success. Even if it throwings dots up or holying packs, it helps.

If an individual holds their group back, they are the ones that need to adjust and improve. Someone explaining how to improve is not the issue. People who learn from mistakes get better. There may be a time they then give that knowledge to someone else. Those that choose to be hurt will then do it to the next group and the next group and so on.

[Goji1639]

So there we go. If you think those standards are too high have at it. I am about as immovable as Goji is on this. Clearly my standards for content with enrages are very different but if I meet someone in casual content I'd expect them to be able to do this much and if they can't (and if I'm able to) I'm going to give advice. It isn't rude or toxic, it's trying to get people to be better for both their sake and the sanity of their future parties.

Your standards are yours, and I'm not even telling you not to act based on them.

What you need to understand is that regardless of your intentions, criticizing in front of the group in a team situation is rude. That's not me saying you can't do it; in many situations it may even be necessary, but it's not something you should do for petty reasons. As a general rule it's something you want to avoid doing.

I get the feeling a lot of you don't understand it's rude, and just pick at people in your groups for every stupid little thing you notice. You assume it's just always ok, becuz "helping," and then your minds get blown when that casual player responds with "WTF Seriously? Mind your own business!"

I'm just explaining this phenomenon to you. Criticizing someone like that in front of the group in a team situation is rude. It just is. That's why people will sometimes react that way to what you're doing.

[KalinOrthos]

Surely you can see the difference between what's happening in this thread and what happens in game right?

Can you? Just this week, I had a Titan Hard Mode where people were people were repeatedly asking for a raise despite being knocked off the platform. When told that they can't be raised because their body was inaccessible, the information was promptly ignored and they went back to spamming for raises. These types exist, period, and what we're asking for is a baseline level of competence, which you seem to be arguing against.

But why do people do dungeons? Gear and XP? Enjoyment of clearing content? Finishing a quest? To improve and better yourself as a player? There's multiple reasons that players join the DF, most of which don't involve getting better as players, and there's a considerable number of players who aren't concerned with becoming the best players in the game. There's a pretty easy way for players who are concerned with being the best of the best to avoid them- premades- and there's also a pretty easy way for players that want to improve to get better- say 'I'm looking for advice' at the beginning of a group. The one thing people agree to by joining a dungeon is working to finish the dungeon- so someone who is afk or basically not filling their role (ie a healer that only spams damage abilities) isn't doing that.

So you agree. Players who aren't contributing to the group aren't doing what they're supposed to. I'm glad we see eye to eye.

Snideness aside, no one knows they are doing something badly. They have to be told or shown, otherwise they're going to continue as they were. The phrase "If it ain't broke" exists for a reason. They don't realize that the way they are playing is bad, and need to be told what they are doing wrong. For instance, I had a ninja who never used Trick Attack, one of the core aspects of the class. I had to tell them "Hey, if you use Suiton, it'll let you do Trick Attack, which raises everyone's damage" before they actually started using it. All they needed was a push. No one is going to zone into an instance with "I want advice", and the thought that you think they would is naive, at best.

Unsolicited advice stems from players with certain desires shoving that onto players who don't share those feelings, often in a very unpleasant way. That doesn't mean you can't give constructive advice in a helpful and friendly way, nor does it mean that there's not a just as massive cadre of unpleasant casual players as there are elitists. But I can guarantee that most of the people here saying they only give polite, constructive criticism yet also get constantly kicked from groups or told their being jerks aren't as good at teaching others as they think they are.

Or. And here me out. Or. There's a swath of toxic casual players that are growing the longer this content drought and quarantine go on, based solely on the fact that there isn't much else to do. And it's becoming increasingly common and frustrating to have to deal with these on a daily basis when it can be fixed with the slightest bit of concern for the people you are playing with in a massively multiplayer online RPG.

[KalinOrthos]

Also, as for my extreme example, again you're just playing at semantics. Pretend I'm one of his friends then, thoroughly involved in their conversation, and decided to blurt out some well intended but completely tactless advice about his bedwetting. Maybe the advice would help our "sleepover" be more pleasant for everyone involved. I'd still be a complete dick to do it right in front of all of his friends, who may or may not have noticed his problem.

Really, what is it with you and this bedwetting example? Really? You even state yourself it's an extreme example, and it's not even relevant. The level of embarrassment is not even close to being on par with being told "hey, if you do x, you'll play better". The amount of anguish being outed to your friends about an incontinence issue is soul-destroying and mortifying in the excess, whereas being told that you should probably do your rotation, as a rotation-based class, is only being told "hey you should do what you're supposed to do". Seriously, stop with the false equivalencies, you're only making yourself look more and more foolish.

[Goji1639]

Really, what is it with you and this bedwetting example? Really? You even state yourself it's an extreme example, and it's not even relevant. The level of embarrassment is not even close to being on par with being told "hey, if you do x, you'll play better". The amount of anguish being outed to your friends about an incontinence issue is soul-destroying and mortifying in the excess, whereas being told that you should probably do your rotation, as a rotation-based class, is only being told "hey you should do what you're supposed to do". Seriously, stop with the false equivalencies, you're only making yourself look more and more foolish.

A) It is relevant; it being extreme doesn't make it irrelevant, it just makes it a very easy to grasp illustration of the reason WHY you don't address peoples problems in public.

B) I'm responding to people who are addressing the example, so of course I'll keep referencing it.

There's a reason you're not supposed to criticize in public. That reason doesn't go away if one criticism is less embarrassing than another. People don't like being embarrassed in public even over small stuff, so you should try not to do that kind of thing unless it's important. Otherwise you're probably just going to start a fight.

[KalinOrthos]

A) It is relevant; it being extreme doesn't make it irrelevant, it just makes it a very easy to grasp illustration of the reason WHY you don't address peoples problems in public.

It's not relevant at all! It's a false equivalence. Something equivalent to what you're proposing would be in voice chat with friends and someone accidentally deadnames a friend who hasn't come out about their past yet. Your example requires a pre-existing strong bond of trust, a close circle of friends, and a secret you'd rather not have people know because of how embarrassing/shameful it is or is perceived to be. A closer example to the reality would be a cramped elevator with coworkers, but one of your coworkers is taking up more space than they need to; soon as you ask them to make a bit of room for other people, they react with a scowl and passive aggressiveness. THAT is a closer equivalence to what we're arguing and much more relevant than your...absurdity.

B) I'm responding to people who are addressing the example, so of course I'll keep referencing it.

You could just move on after having acknowledged its absurdity, but instead you cling to it for dear life, because it's the only remotely, vaguely similar example that MAY support your argument, relevance be damned.

There's a reason you're not supposed to criticize in public. That reason doesn't go away if one criticism is less embarrassing than another. People don't like being embarrassed in public even over small stuff, so if you should save that kind of thing for when it's important. Otherwise you're probably just going to start a fight.

The criticisms aren't even in public! You aren't jumping onto Novice Network on going "HEY [playername]! YOU SHOULD DO THIS!" It's in a party, with words that will probably never leave the instance, with other players you'll never see again, in an attempt to make the run smoother, and to make the player harder, better, faster, stronger. If someone is going to act with rage at the AUDACITY of being told that their way of play is hampering the rest of the group, then they're a lost cause and are often promptly ignored, but not every player is like that; in fact, most people are receptive, so long as you don't outright attack them. And here's the thing: RARELY have I seen someone outright attack another player, and in the instances I did see it, I rebuked their elitist asses, while at the same time giving the somewhat same advice in a more palatable dish.

[Melichoir]

The positive and negative aren't things outside your control and they aren't things that are interpreted by either person. When point out a flaw that's a negative, and when pointing out good performance that's a positive. That isn't subjective; and in terms of team etiquette in most situations you're supposed to address a negative in private. To do it any other way is confrontational and only serves to single out and embarrass the person you're attempting to communicate with.

Welp there you have it. Whether something is positive or negative is completely on the speaker, not the listener...except that this is untrue and is something Ive addressed already.

Either way, you run the risk of offending and being rude to the recipient. Even if you said "Good Job!" on a clear, they can take that as "Good Job? I sucked. Stop patronizing me." or "Good Job? What about all those other times?" or "Good Job? I did excellent. Stop putting me down."

In all cases, even your best efforts to not offend and mean well have been interpreted as negative results. Because you cant control what other people think. Even if it is ridiculous...

This and now youre assigning motive to the person speaking. They must be creating confrontation and cause embarrassment. It's the only reason why a person may do it.

Let me flip this -


I purposefully call out player x by saying someting akin to "Why are you dying? Youre getting us all killed."

In response, they say: "Oh I forgot to do y"

I respond in kind by saying "Stop sucking and do y then. Jesus!"

Player x thinks to themselves "Hes right. I need to be ontop of y! Atleast he cared enough to talk to me."


Unrealistic? How you do you know? Do you know the inner thoughts and workings of everyone who isn't you? That direct action of actually being rude and calling someone out wasnt taken that way in the example because the perspective of the person receiving it was different than my intentions. Maybe theyre naive or too nice. Who knows, but it is a possible response. The negative response was taken as a positive cause of the nature of the receiver.

You cannot control for other people. This is basics. The best you can argue for is influencing the response you would like to see. Which is why I have been saying to be polite when addressing issues or providing advice.

Anyone who's worked with a team at a professional level will tell you this; it's incredibly basic.

I do enjoy that you keep suggesting the 'professional level' thing, cause you know, most of us dont have jobs that are part of companies that require teamwork or cooperation. But nah, working at both big companies and small mom and pop companies means I dont know anything about interacting with colleagues on projects.

Now the obvious exception is addressing a problem that needs to be addressed with immediacy, where you don't have the luxury of a more courteous approach. That's not just "a problem you see," it's a problem you feel has to be immediately dealt with right then and there. I don't think many of you are very good at making the distinction between "this is important" and "this is just bothering me" when deciding to be discourteous.

I have reason to doubt your point of view on other players ability to judge when something is important and when it should be left alone, cause your view of the player base is that they cant handle being given advice in a dungeon cause itd be rude. This isnt some new concept of addressing problems either. When discussing parsers, people try to make the argument that parsing makes for more toxicity cause you can see a players performance. However, Moderate to seasoned players can literally see when youre performing poorly. I know a bad healer vs a good healer without addons because I can observe what theyre doing in party.

So I can easily make a sound judgement that "the dps is lacking', when it takes substantially longer than normal to kill a large pack. And I can quickly tell if its a gear issue or mechanics issue because I know what AoE spells look like. Most moderate players can do this. Much like I can tell when a tank isnt CDing cause of how fast their HP drops to auto attacks. Or how a healer is just spamming medica 2 cause I can see them cast ONLY medica 2.

Also, as for my extreme example, again you're just playing at semantics. Pretend I'm one of his friends then, thoroughly involved in their conversation, and decided to blurt out some well intended but completely tactless advice about his bedwetting. Maybe the advice would help our "sleepover" be more comfortable for everyone involved. I'd still be a complete dick to do it right in front of all of his friends, who may or may not have noticed his problem.

See now your backtracking the conversation. Stop trying to weasel out of what you said by claiming "You and your gosh darn semantics!". If you are a part of the conversation, it is a current discussed topic, and you offer up advice in said conversation, why in hell's name would people all of a sudden think youre rude, typically? It was literally what was being discussed in a conversation you are currently a participant in. If you were in a conversation about DND, bedwetting wasnt even part of the topic or the personal issue your friend has with it, and you blurt it out in front of others, that would be rude. Context matters.

Btw you undermined your first point - If only you can control whether something is positive or negative, and you say something positive, the other person can take it as a negative and see it as rude, despite your positive framing or intentions.

[Goji1639]

snip.

It's not a false equivalency, it's perfectly apt. The only element that needs to be present for it to fit this context is embarrassment, which it provides in a way that's simple for all of you to grasp. Through that example it's made clear WHY causing public embarrassment for a person isn't the best way to approach offering criticism. Do it in private.

And, in this context "public" refers to the group you're in. If you're on a team there are certain things you do in front of the team and certain things you do in private with individual members of the team. When offering criticism you do it in private. Doing it in front of the team is demoralizing and embarrassing.