What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[Mithia]

nope you didn't understand me here, im talking about gameplay not overall performance numbers, for example WAR was always around fell cleave hit harder with preparing his burst windows and DRK was about cosntant manage his MP and priority uses of his resources, and now both are just unga bunga inner delirium desing with no variance whatsoever.

Not really, I did not misunderstand you. I'm well aware of what went on with tanks in the last few years. I'll say this again, the class design can be so amazing and satisfying and people will still leave the class for a far worse designed class that if it remotely performs better.

Paladin would be the best case and point, why did no one play a paladin in HW? Because it was far inferior to the WAR or DRK.

all tanks need to have similar damage ouput like now and how they did in SB last tier, have similar mitigation potential and around the same utility, but that's doesnt mean every tank should be doing unga-bunga requiem inner delirium or have the same copy pasted mitigation tools and raid shields, here is the main diference.

Every class should be able to do the same but it shouldn't be an exact copy. Got it, there are still numerous distinctive abilities that set the jobs apart from each other. While there may be similarities, that doesn't mean that it's exactly the same. Yes, you have a cooldown that allows you to burst, woopdie do. Try to balance 4 classes without any form of homogenization or when they have these "Job identifying specialties" which usually bottles down "War dishes out most dmg", "PLD shields the party", "DRK is best in magic environments", "GNB does best in... who cares he has a gunblade".

No, WAR's where crying about not having a party-wide CD because their dmg wasn't far superior to PLD or DRK anymore. So, SE gave them a party-wide CD although it doesn't make much sense but hey. Let's give the best tanks out there some more utility to really solidify themselves in the meta.

I hardly saw a WAR crying about job identity back then.

But ok, let's establish for now that players all want a Sheltron-like ability and something that encompasses the entire party like Divine Veil. But WAR and DRK has to hit the hardest because they don't have a shield, it only makes sense!

if we look at SB last days and you give a WAR an single target suppor skill and DRK an aoe shield you will have a greatly balance roster with great diversity on how each job works, PLD working on his combos and RC, WAR working around inner release and deep gauge management, and DRK being the faster heavy resource management job.

So, PLD gets his combo's and RC, but WAR gets a single target support skill and DRK can now use a divine veil-like shield.

Odd, so, PLD gets nothing... PLD had no AoE mind. But that was fine in actual content like savage or ultimate. But let's forget for a moment about their lack of AoE abilities.

Why should the other jobs with their superior rotations and intricateness require job identifying abilities from the paladin? Just let it sink in from a moment.

i hope you undertand that gameplay identity/diversity doesnt translate to X job doing moar damage than others or having way more mitigation since you can have several jobs operating way to diferent and still archiving the same performance wich is what i personaly ask.

There are indeed different ways to go about class identity, but it's impossible to create fights that balanced for all 4 classes. The way CD's work, the way their dps works, etc etc. That's why homogenization is a necessity in the name of balance and accessibility for all jobs. Currently, tanks are in the best position that they have ever been as you won't decline a job, you'll decline the player when forming groups. And that is good game design.

thats a missconception, on past expansions any new player could just sit on tank stance and do his job perfectly well on the 99% of the game content with the sole exception of savage and ultimate, it wasn't hard to new players get it to it since agro management under tank stance was a joke as it's right now, the hard part comes when you have to start reducing tank stance usage and mid max the rest of the kit to archive the best performance of the job thats again just requested for savage and ultimate and even on savage you could keep being a tank stance baby on the first turns when you team overgear it.

Do you hear yourself? When you can out gear the content you can sit in tank stance and let the party do the dps for you.

We aren't talking about dungeons when it comes down to job accessibility, we are talking about actual endgame content like Savage raids or Ultimates. More people then ever got into raiding, which is healthy for the game! Why can't you understand that the previous iterations of tanks was needlessly complex and the only result was that PLD got shafted in favor of the big damage dealers.

[Crushnight]

Not really, I did not misunderstand you. I'm well aware of what went on with tanks in the last few years. I'll say this again, the class design can be so amazing and satisfying and people will still leave the class for a far worse designed class that if it remotely performs better.

Ik this is about tanks here but this statement is false if you look at healers (or maybe healers seem to be the exception to this rule idk), Ast is defacto best healer from an output standpoint, Sch is defacto worst healer from an output standpoint, Sch is played nearly 12k more than Ast is(savage anyway) and whm is more than double Ast.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...#class=Healers

If numbers was all that people cared about Ast would be higher than both of the other two but it is not, it is dead last which begs the question why? And the simplest answer is people just don't enjoy it compared to the other two.

The difference between current healers and pld in HW is the content doesn't work against them, pld's design was a physical mitigating tank in HW then they design raid tiers that were heavy magical dmg this is what caused pld's numbers to plummet their skills were useless for a lot of things baring auto attacks heck their shield was useless for near everything non auto for Gordias. Pld suffered hard for the devs lack of foresight on making most things magical damage (something they said they decide at the last minute when designing fights so not hard to see how it slipped through) in HW, fortunately Pld design changed to allow it to be useful against magic damage had the physical limitation remained to this day I can be sure that pld wouldn't be played as much as it currently is.


It comes down to how a job functions, if all function well in a given role, people would then turn to the playstyle they enjoy the most, numbers tend to be the last thing people care about (at least for healers) for what they want to play as.

[Mithia]

Ik this is about tanks here but this statement is false if you look at healers (or maybe healers seem to be the exception to this rule idk), Ast is defacto best healer from an output standpoint, Sch is defacto worst healer from an output standpoint, Sch is played nearly 12k more than Ast is(savage anyway) and whm is more than double Ast.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...#class=Healers

If numbers was all that people cared about Ast would be higher than both of the other two but it is not, it is dead last which begs the question why? And the simplest answer is people just don't enjoy it compared to the other two.

The difference between current healers and pld in HW is the content doesn't work against them, pld's design was a physical mitigating tank in HW then they design raid tiers that were heavy magical dmg this is what caused pld's numbers to plummet their skills were useless for a lot of things baring auto attacks heck their shield was useless for near everything non auto for Gordias. Pld suffered hard for the devs lack of foresight on making most things magical damage (something they said they decide at the last minute when designing fights so not hard to see how it slipped through) in HW, fortunately Pld design changed to allow it to be useful against magic damage had the physical limitation remained to this day I can be sure that pld wouldn't be played as much as it currently is.


It comes down to how a job functions, if all function well in a given role, people would then turn to the playstyle they enjoy the most, numbers tend to be the last thing people care about (at least for healers) for what they want to play as.

AST has the highest raid damage potential but also the weakest adps. So its damage comes from general card usage which in return relies on the dps they have in the party. On top of that, have you seen the variety of openers of AST? Plus the amount of planning you have to do when playing an AST? Its no wonder why people float more towards SCH/WHM. And that's because it's needlessly complex, they rather play a WHM and just press 1 button to get their high parse run.

PLD didn't just have the problem of weak against magic, its damage was also abysmal compared to other tanks.

Numbers are the first priority for the majority of endgame players. They will always try out the job with the highest potential, only if they dislike it or can't do the rotation right will they consider other jobs.

[shao32]

Not really, I did not misunderstand you. I'm well aware of what went on with tanks in the last few years. I'll say this again, the class design can be so amazing and satisfying and people will still leave the class for a far worse designed class that if it remotely performs better.

And? buff the jobs thats the thing, balance is about numbers not gameplay design at the end just buff the job number, don't give it inner release.

Paladin would be the best case and point, why did no one play a paladin in HW? Because it was far inferior to the WAR or DRK.

PLD not only was the worst mitigation tank in HW and do lower dps, his gameplay was boring as hell, was only royal authority and goring blade all day, compared to the complex WAR and DRK gameplay the job hardest part was fight the monotomy, and after that they could buffed his defensive kit and his overall dps and solved the balanced problems easily without touching the gameplay, again a job performing worse than others it's a question of numbers not design.

Every class should be able to do the same but it shouldn't be an exact copy. Got it, there are still numerous distinctive abilities that set the jobs apart from each other. While there may be similarities, that doesn't mean that it's exactly the same. Yes, you have a cooldown that allows you to burst, woopdie do. Try to balance 4 classes without any form of homogenization or when they have these "Job identifying specialties" which usually bottles down "War dishes out most dmg", "PLD shields the party", "DRK is best in magic environments", "GNB does best in... who cares he has a gunblade".

you keep going into job specialitys WAR doing most damage, DRK magic beast ect ect ect and that's have nothing to do wich what i said.

example here, SAM and BLM, both jobs selfish high dps, gameplays can't be more diferent betwen this 2 and are pretty well balanced right now whats your point now?, homogenization should always come over job performance not job gameplay about how they archive that damage, or mitigation or support the party wich is where current tanks desings fails.

No, WAR's where crying about not having a party-wide CD because their dmg wasn't far superior to PLD or DRK anymore. So, SE gave them a party-wide CD although it doesn't make much sense but hey. Let's give the best tanks out there some more utility to really solidify themselves in the meta.

I hardly saw a WAR crying about job identity back then.

WARs complaing that they didn't have any kind of utility no not having a raid mitigation tool and still despite they get a raid shield like PLD it's works way diferent from divine shield with is own perks that make the skill unique and not being superior to DV despite being the same kind of utility wich is the point here.

now compared this to the lazy implementation of dark missionary and heart of light both being a 15% magic damage mitigation with the same recast oferring nothing to the identity of DRK and GNB.

But ok, let's establish for now that players all want a Sheltron-like ability and something that encompasses the entire party like Divine Veil. But WAR and DRK has to hit the hardest because they don't have a shield, it only makes sense!

So, PLD gets his combo's and RC, but WAR gets a single target support skill and DRK can now use a divine veil-like shield.

Odd, so, PLD gets nothing... PLD had no AoE mind. But that was fine in actual content like savage or ultimate. But let's forget for a moment about their lack of AoE abilities.

Why should the other jobs with their superior rotations and intricateness require job identifying abilities from the paladin? Just let it sink in from a moment.

gameplay diversity perhaps? not every job needs to be a complex machine to archive great results and having diferent gameplays you could easily target diferent players demographics, WAR and DRK being more intricate with they gameplay in they orn way make them unique, PLD being less complex and still archiving the same result make it a perfect choice for ppl who want something more simple to manage, if you make everything the same then you make most of the players demographic have nothing to play wich is as a example a problem for me right now.

There are indeed different ways to go about class identity, but it's impossible to create fights that balanced for all 4 classes. The way CD's work, the way their dps works, etc etc. That's why homogenization is a necessity in the name of balance and accessibility for all jobs. Currently, tanks are in the best position that they have ever been as you won't decline a job, you'll decline the player when forming groups. And that is good game design.

Tell that to the entire dps roster, each one being complete unique, some having burst tipe of damage, others having more sustained damage, having high personal dps or having low personal dps but ofering powerful raid buffs and they still are there, more or less pretty well balanced and no fights desing offer a problem to any of them.

Tanks are in the worst position ever, playing the same the role doesn't really offer gameplay variance, the party contribution it's laugable and our personal mechanics are non existent, we are the most brain dead role of the game right now and this didn't help to raise the tank population numbers.

i played DRK the entire SB, you know the expansion where the job was the worst at dps, mitigation and utility, and the entire 1º tier i did it with pugs all the time from aletier to neo exdeath and i never being rejected for being a DRK not even i find my static later one, no objections so this is mostly a over exageration.

Do you hear yourself? When you can out gear the content you can sit in tank stance and let the party do the dps for you.

We aren't talking about dungeons when it comes down to job accessibility, we are talking about actual endgame content like Savage raids or Ultimates. More people then ever got into raiding, which is healthy for the game! Why can't you understand that the previous iterations of tanks was needlessly complex and the only result was that PLD got shafted in favor of the big damage dealers.

accessibility to savage and ultimate it's a nonsense, the western playerbase are still the one with so low clear rates despite making everything brain dead, ppl getting in to savage it's a problem of western mentality not the game or the jobs, ppl only want fast satisfaction and don't put any real effort most of the time to get things and thats not a problem of the game, if they make everything more accesible then stops being called hard dontent.

tanks wasn't needlessly complex at all, they didn't require more time than a DPS to master the job and the complexity of the role was exagerated, heck even now when veterans complain about how easy and braindead it's everything most ppl still belive tanking is hard, so they didn't fix anything, they just make things way worse, even the JP are complaing that the quality of the role it's pretty low right now.

[ForgottenScholar]

[QUOTE=shao32;5371874]example here, SAM and BLM, both jobs selfish high dps, gameplays can't be more diferent betwen this 2 and are pretty well balanced right now whats your point now?, homogenization should always come over job performance not job gameplay about how they archive that damage, or mitigation or support the party wich is where current tanks desings fails.[/QUOTE

Dps can have the appearance of the diversity it has because it’s role is simple in a party..........DEAL DAMAGE, that’s it. As long as they deal damage then it doesn’t matter how visually they do it. But to be honest their is plenty of similar abilities between them all, some sharing build up phases to short high DPS windows in order to line up with other jobs.

tanks wasn't needlessly complex at all, they didn't require more time than a DPS to master the job and the complexity of the role was exagerated, heck even now when veterans complain about how easy and braindead it's everything most ppl still belive tanking is hard, so they didn't fix anything, they just make things way worse, even the JP are complaing that the quality of the role it's pretty low right now.

I have to disagree with this IMO, tanks from last expansions were needlessly complex to their primary job of mitigation, hate management and positioning by changing stances in order to maximise dps. But essentially the DPS took precedent over their primary role, making it hard for anyone new to do the job without the toxicity and the “git gud” quotes to starts coming through. Forum posts have been like this for yrs now, It hasn’t really changed. This happened last exp when lots of abilities got slashed to stop button bloat.
I expect next expansion the dps might see with same style of rework to certain jobs, I won’t be surprised if it does. I mean take a look at a lot of the jobs and the amount of buttons you yeh to press, especially if your on controller? Yet you want more in the next expansion so where are they gonna go?.

Essentially this game has to cater to most players and not the few, question is did it work with the changes to tanks and healers, time will tell and SE will respond if it hasn’t. Yoshi has always said if you don’t like the content or the game right now, take a break and come back when content has taken your fancy. So if tanks and healers aren’t doing it for you, go dps or try another game for a bit. Check back once 5.3 or later drops and see what’s what then.

[HeulGDarian]

example here, SAM and BLM, both jobs selfish high dps, gameplays can't be more diferent betwen this 2 and are pretty well balanced right now whats your point now?, homogenization should always come over job performance not job gameplay about how they archive that damage, or mitigation or support the party wich is where current tanks desings fails.[/QUOTE

Dps can have the appearance of the diversity it has because it’s role is simple in a party..........DEAL DAMAGE, that’s it. As long as they deal damage then it doesn’t matter how visually they do it. But to be honest their is plenty of similar abilities between them all, some sharing build up phases to short high DPS windows in order to line up with other jobs.




I have to disagree with this IMO, tanks from last expansions were needlessly complex to their primary job of mitigation, hate management and positioning by changing stances in order to maximise dps. But essentially the DPS took precedent over their primary role, making it hard for anyone new to do the job without the toxicity and the “git gud” quotes to starts coming through. Forum posts have been like this for yrs now, It hasn’t really changed. This happened last exp when lots of abilities got slashed to stop button bloat.
I expect next expansion the dps might see with same style of rework to certain jobs, I won’t be surprised if it does. I mean take a look at a lot of the jobs and the amount of buttons you yeh to press, especially if your on controller? Yet you want more in the next expansion so where are they gonna go?.

Essentially this game has to cater to most players and not the few, question is did it work with the changes to tanks and healers, time will tell and SE will respond if it hasn’t. Yoshi has always said if you don’t like the content or the game right now, take a break and come back when content has taken your fancy. So if tanks and healers aren’t doing it for you, go dps or try another game for a bit. Check back once 5.3 or later drops and see what’s what then.

So cause a lot of People couldnt be bothered to learn how to dps as tanks something which was unnecessary for normal stuff, nobody should have fun. And People Wonder why all healers and tanks complain. And you also think that dps should go through the same thing. Mhmm. Ill try to keep my calm. My friend Who tanked since arr didnt leave cause he got burned out of content, the myriad top tier tanks and heal didnt leave cause they got burned out from content, everyone Who currently complaints isnt Just someone Who is burned out of content.
No what happened is SE butchered any kind of skill sealing and any kind of fun part in the name of ACCESIBILITY because People want to be good without trying, when you play the game and People have in their mind that any degree of criticism and knowledge of good you are is toxic yet hide behind every mistake as sorry im New or its too Hard for me, expecting to be carried while they watch YouTube on their godamn Phone, then its not the games godamn fault and the job shouldnt be simplified. Dps healer or tank i dont care what youre playing putting some thought behind your play isnt elitism and it isnt hardcore mentality its what youre expected to do. If you cant do your damn hardest you can at least do your bear minimum, that does not give you the right to then complain that the sealing should be dropped. What the tanks and healers are currently experiencing isnt the way things should be for all Jobs no. This is a crisis not something for you to quote yoshi p in a way so that you can say good riddance to all the People Who lost their reason to play their favourite job and reason to play the game as well as improve or struggle to clear savage with their friends. You think that the hardcore plauers leaving is Just a 1% thing but their leave was felt by many more than that. Your selfishness to have anything those Who put effort has costed me a friend.

[Lyth]

It's not about role difficulty. There's been a push for 'simpler' gameplay since mid-Heavensward across all roles. People only care about 'difficulty' as it relates to differentiating themselves from others.

The issue with tanking is that it is high impact in introductory content, and low impact in raid content. This leaves newer tanks feeling overwhelmed and more experienced tanks feeling like they aren't providing value for effort. Anything that you achieve for your team is expected, not valued.

Outcomes determine the impact that a role has. In other words: what has wipe potential? In raid content, it mostly comes down to: dps checks, team jump-rope mechanics, and raid-wides. Of these, the second and third often snowball into the first. DPS is king. Unsurprisingly, tanking relevance has dropped off as a function of its relative dps output.

What has wipe potential in levelling content? Tank deaths (mitigation) and healer deaths (enmity). DPS output has value in getting you through content faster and reducing the amount of incoming damage that you have to mitigate, but it largely feeds back into the first point. If your tank dies, everyone dies. If your healer dies, then your tank dies, and everyone dies. Unsurprisingly, there are still newer players who find tanking to be intimidating, despite progressive efforts to make the role 'simpler.' Why? Wipe potential. It's all backwards.

Where do we go from here? If we accept the fact that dps supersedes everything else, the simplest approach is to narrow the relative dps disparity between roles, such that there's a small amount of overlap between a strong tank and a mediocre dps. That's what worked for us in ARR and Heavensward. Then it becomes "Look how much damage that tank is doing!" rather than "Huh, you're doing a lot of damage, for a tank. Well, good for you, I guess." There's still more overall carry potential in dps, but you also get the utility to pull off all some clutch situational awareness saves on the side while doing competitive damage.

Alternatively, you need to make the rest of tanking have impact that has equivalent value to doing more damage. Engage both tanks at all times. Throw in more add spawns who want to eat your healers, or council fight scenarios where both tanks are taking large amounts of damage. There shouldn't ever be a "backup tank". Keep up pressure on your tanks, and force defensive cooldown attrition. Give tank deaths their due wipe potential. Force tanks to position and reposition mobs in a way that ensures survival while not compromising raid dps output. In the same way that you want to gear up your dps as a top priority to meet checks, you should want to gear up your tanks as a priority so that you can survive, see more mechanics, and clear.

Change one, or change both. But things can't stay as they are.

[Tlamila]

Alternatively, you need to make the rest of tanking have impact that has equivalent value to doing more damage. Engage both tanks at all times. Throw in more add spawns who want to eat your healers, or council fight scenarios where both tanks are taking large amounts of damage. There shouldn't ever be a "backup tank". Keep up pressure on your tanks, and force defensive cooldown attrition. Give tank deaths their due wipe potential. Force tanks to position and reposition mobs in a way that ensures survival while not compromising raid dps output.

I agree with this so much, especially the OT part. Being OT in most fights in this is the most boring thing ever and nobody wants to do it, unless they really want to watch netflix. There are a few fights in which off-tanking is a huge role, but really too few, and also while levelling. Either make fights have only 1 tank or keep the OT busy.

[Mithia]

And? buff the jobs thats the thing, balance is about numbers not gameplay design at the end just buff the job number, don't give it inner release.

You forget that there were actual riots from the Warriors that their dps was sub-optimal. There was a very large audience that flat out said that Paladin was fine because it had more mitigation in Stormblood.

PLD not only was the worst mitigation tank in HW and do lower dps, his gameplay was boring as hell, was only royal authority and goring blade all day, compared to the complex WAR and DRK gameplay the job hardest part was fight the monotomy, and after that they could buffed his defensive kit and his overall dps and solved the balanced problems easily without touching the gameplay, again a job performing worse than others it's a question of numbers not design.

This is interesting because you also said that its fine that PLD has the "easier" rotation. You can even argue that it was harder playing a PLD because you had to be somewhat competitive in dps and at the same time keep agro which was a very difficult balance to chose between Rage of Halone your agro gainer or Royal Authority. It was in so much shambles at the time that you just didn't take anything else than a WAR and preferable 2 at the same time.

Regardless their oh so complex gameplay was just Fell Cleave while keeping their dmg buff up. That's not exactly challenging gameplay. They didn't have to make choices because their Fell Cleaves balanced out their agro issue that other tanks had. And lets not forget that the only trade-off they had to get was a -20% HP buff should they chose not to go into tank stance. A SCH or AST could just mitigate that easily.

you keep going into job specialitys WAR doing most damage, DRK magic beast ect ect ect and that's have nothing to do wich what i said.

example here, SAM and BLM, both jobs selfish high dps, gameplays can't be more diferent betwen this 2 and are pretty well balanced right now whats your point now?, homogenization should always come over job performance not job gameplay about how they archive that damage, or mitigation or support the party wich is where current tanks desings fails.

You can't compare DPS to Tanks, DPS just has to deal damage, but ok, its interesting that you compare BLM and SAM. There is a reason why SAM is a walking meme. Their kit has no real burst that they can use on-demand, while ShB resolved some of their issues from the previous expansion, BLM gained even more mobility putting them right below Summoners.

Where are Samurai? That's right, they are the least wanted melee dps out there.

WARs complaing that they didn't have any kind of utility no not having a raid mitigation tool and still despite they get a raid shield like PLD it's works way diferent from divine shield with is own perks that make the skill unique and not being superior to DV despite being the same kind of utility wich is the point here.

now compared this to the lazy implementation of dark missionary and heart of light both being a 15% magic damage mitigation with the same recast oferring nothing to the identity of DRK and GNB.

I mean, it's way better I don't understand why you'd consider Divine Veil to be superior. On top of it having to be a triggered by a heal, it also scales with the PLD their HP. To a measly 10%.

And then you have the warrior with 15% extra hp, ready to be buffed with other CD's that you may have...

Then you have a 15% magic damage mitigation sure, PLD has wings. Ye that's right, we can't attack when we wish to use a proper party-wide CD.

gameplay diversity perhaps? not every job needs to be a complex machine to archive great results and having diferent gameplays you could easily target diferent players demographics, WAR and DRK being more intricate with they gameplay in they orn way make them unique, PLD being less complex and still archiving the same result make it a perfect choice for ppl who want something more simple to manage, if you make everything the same then you make most of the players demographic have nothing to play wich is as a example a problem for me right now.

The moment that PLD even remotely resembled to be equal in damage to WAR or DRK the forums were rioting. So ye, for the last time, the way players see "fun" is by being able to dish out damage and class design is entirely based on how well they perform. WAR's were out of control for 2 full expansions and that's why they felt so superior in class design because they were able to do EVERYTHING without any downside.

Currently, the meta is very straightforward for tanks:

• You use cooldowns when a tank buster comes
• You mitigate the party damage with your raid CD's so players won't die
• You dish out acceptable damage while performing the required mechanics

However, should you come to a point where you are slowly out gearing the content, and your healers are aware of incoming raid-wide damage, then your raid CD's won't be necessary since an SCH can place a shield to mitigate. If you progress savage early on, or ultimate, you'll figure out sooner enough that a tank is not boring but they actually have to use their cooldowns to counter raid-wide damage and tank busters.

Tell that to the entire dps roster, each one being complete unique, some having burst tipe of damage, others having more sustained damage, having high personal dps or having low personal dps but ofering powerful raid buffs and they still are there, more or less pretty well balanced and no fights desing offer a problem to any of them.

I agree it's not as bad as it used to be. But honestly, if you don't take a SMN into endgame content you are just handicapping yourself. Same goes for a NIN or DRG, and then you can take your pick from the Ranged and then you add another caster, probably a RDM after the buffs if you really want to rush prog. But ye, so much diversity.

Tanks are in the worst position ever, playing the same the role doesn't really offer gameplay variance, the party contribution it's laugable and our personal mechanics are non existent, we are the most brain dead role of the game right now and this didn't help to raise the tank population numbers.

No, it really doesn't matter what tank job you take these days and that's actually GOOD design. The only reason why you'd want to take a DRK atm is for their utility, and it's only marginal for Ultimate. All 4 tanks are interchangeable atm, DPS however, are not. You can finish the fight without them, but you'll make your life harder.

If you only play content that is designed to be completed by the majority of people and you only finish the content late in the tier when your party out gears the content then your slack can be picked up by the rest of the party yes. All the challenges the tank has can be picked up by another class. BUT in return, you as a good tank can also pick up the slack from the healer. Did he not use a shield? You can mitigate it for them. A dps is slacking on his job? Np, you have plenty of gear now and you dish out quite a bit more dmg then at the start. THIS IS GOOD DESIGN. Your party isn't limited anymore by the aggro build-up of your tanks or if they were able to cheese a tank buster or not.

i played DRK the entire SB, you know the expansion where the job was the worst at dps, mitigation and utility, and the entire 1º tier i did it with pugs all the time from aletier to neo exdeath and i never being rejected for being a DRK not even i find my static later one, no objections so this is mostly a over exageration.

Yes, and I played SAM in a casual static last expansion. What is your point? It doesn't mean I wasn't holding my team back with my lack of utility even though I dished out the most damage.

Even so, DRK wasn't in the same spot that PLD was the expansion before that, and who took a PLD? Nobody. Viability is to what you can offer if you are progressing difficult content, SE makes a point of making all content accessible for all classes and they are 100% right to homogenize if they can't get the balance right which they've been trying very hard to do. Simple buffs and nerfs didn't cut it because the class design was just to viable compared to others. That's why you often saw the good old WAR/PLD - NIN/DRG/BRD/SMN - and then depending on which patch the better healers.

accessibility to savage and ultimate it's a nonsense, the western playerbase are still the one with so low clear rates despite making everything brain dead, ppl getting in to savage it's a problem of western mentality not the game or the jobs, ppl only want fast satisfaction and don't put any real effort most of the time to get things and thats not a problem of the game, if they make everything more accesible then stops being called hard dontent.

Ok. If the content isn't accessible people will just flock to different games, look at Wildstar with their catering to the hardcore players. The charm of FFXIV is that it caters to casual players. Ultimate is prestige content atm, not savage.

tanks wasn't needlessly complex at all, they didn't require more time than a DPS to master the job and the complexity of the role was exagerated, heck even now when veterans complain about how easy and braindead it's everything most ppl still belive tanking is hard, so they didn't fix anything, they just make things way worse, even the JP are complaing that the quality of the role it's pretty low right now.

A party was limited by its quality of tanks. Unless the tank could keep their agro alive while dealing the necessary damage to kill the boss, severely limited the accessibility into the role. Anyone could pick up a tank, but tanking a raid boss? That was vastly more challenging than playing a dps. This is bad design.

So cause a lot of People couldnt be bothered to learn how to dps as tanks something which was unnecessary for normal stuff, nobody should have fun. And People Wonder why all healers and tanks complain. And you also think that dps should go through the same thing. Mhmm. Ill try to keep my calm. My friend Who tanked since arr didnt leave cause he got burned out of content, the myriad top tier tanks and heal didnt leave cause they got burned out from content, everyone Who currently complaints isnt Just someone Who is burned out of content.
No what happened is SE butchered any kind of skill sealing and any kind of fun part in the name of ACCESIBILITY because People want to be good without trying, when you play the game and People have in their mind that any degree of criticism and knowledge of good you are is toxic yet hide behind every mistake as sorry im New or its too Hard for me, expecting to be carried while they watch YouTube on their godamn Phone, then its not the games godamn fault and the job shouldnt be simplified. Dps healer or tank i dont care what youre playing putting some thought behind your play isnt elitism and it isnt hardcore mentality its what youre expected to do. If you cant do your damn hardest you can at least do your bear minimum, that does not give you the right to then complain that the sealing should be dropped. What the tanks and healers are currently experiencing isnt the way things should be for all Jobs no. This is a crisis not something for you to quote yoshi p in a way so that you can say good riddance to all the People Who lost their reason to play their favourite job and reason to play the game as well as improve or struggle to clear savage with their friends. You think that the hardcore plauers leaving is Just a 1% thing but their leave was felt by many more than that. Your selfishness to have anything those Who put effort has costed me a friend.

Nobody is argue'ing that tanks shouldn't be challenging, they still are mind if you actually get into actual challenging content like early into savages before you out gear it or Ultimates. Tanks are now expected to help mitigate damage on the party, something that IS part of their Job description and class design. They aren't just there to make agro so the party can dps. And that agro part is so outdated, people are happy it's gone. And that's also the reason why tanks their kit look a bit more empty because their agro rotation disappeared. But hey, it must be different being expected to press a CD on queue instead of a Fell Cleave.

[TheRealQuah]

Where are Samurai? That's right, they are the least wanted melee dps out there.

Isn't SAM the most played out of all DPS in Savage at the moment?

And the second most played melee in ultimate?