What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[shao32]

Ah yes, let's make warriors deal the most damage and have the most hp for class identity.

Surprise! Every static wants a Warrior!

Who do we take for an OT?

Well, there is the Dark Knight that has decent damage and are great against magic damage!
And then there is the Paladin that has the weakest damage output but hey! They have dIvInE vEiL!

All statics run War/DRK.

But hey, it's all in the name of class identity that the PLD doesn't deal the same damage as WAR or DRK because they have a shield!

nope you didn't understand me here, im talking about gameplay not overall performance numbers, for example WAR was always around fell cleave hit harder with preparing his burst windows and DRK was about cosntant manage his MP and priority uses of his resources, and now both are just unga bunga inner delirium desing with no variance whatsoever.

all tanks need to have similar damage ouput like now and how they did in SB last tier, have similar mitigation potential and around the same utility, but that's doesnt mean every tank should be doing unga-bunga requiem inner delirium or have the same copy pasted mitigation tools and raid shields, here is the main diference.

if we look at SB last days and you give a WAR an single target suppor skill and DRK an aoe shield you will have a greatly balance roster with great diversity on how each job works, PLD working on his combos and RC, WAR working around inner release and deep gauge management, and DRK being the faster heavy resource management job.

i hope you undertand that gameplay identity/diversity doesnt translate to X job doing moar damage than others or having way more mitigation since you can have several jobs operating way to diferent and still archiving the same performance wich is what i personaly ask.

Ye your right, optimizing was fun, if you were a warrior. WAR/WAR was a great duo for log runs. So much fun for the other tank jobs.

The biggest problem with the design of HW/SB was the absolute need to be able to execute the job well enough to maintain agro, on top of that you were also expected to drop your tank stance so you could dps freely. This was very difficult to balance for new players to ease into the role so most of them just didn't try. It's not accessible and it was way above the difficulty of dps or healers.

thats a missconception, on past expansions any new player could just sit on tank stance and do his job perfectly well on the 99% of the game content with the sole exception of savage and ultimate, it wasn't hard to new players get it to it since agro management under tank stance was a joke as it's right now, the hard part comes when you have to start reducing tank stance usage and mid max the rest of the kit to archive the best performance of the job thats again just requested for savage and ultimate and even on savage you could keep being a tank stance baby on the first turns when you team overgear it.

im a veterant tank since 2.0 and i loved optimice my DRK resources to mid-max his usage along side of other things, at the same times friends of mine loved optimice inner release and berserk before the changes of 4.2 and PLD with his casted holy spirits, i loved run with DRK and WAR on dungeons due how complex they aoe rotations was so you was able to do so much things with it, ect ect, It wasn't something exclusive of WAR, and optimice the other jobs mechanics was a lot of fun, and now whit the exception of PLD who is the only one that get more complex this expansion in a personal way tanks are extremly boring and unrewarding to play due how not only they simplified the whole role mechanics but they personal Gameplay aswel.

[HeulGDarian]

nope you didn't understand me here, im talking about gameplay not overall performance numbers, example WAR was always around fell cleave hit harder with it preparing his burst windows and DRK was about cosntant manage his MP and priority uses of his resources and now both are just hunga bunga innder delirium desing with no variance whatsoever.

all tanks need to have similar damage ouput like now and how they did in SB last tier, have similar mitigation potential and around the same utility, but that's doesnt meant every tank should be doing unga-bunga requiem inner delirium or have the same copy pasted mitigation tools and raid shields, here is the main diference.

if we look at SB last days and you give a WAR an single target suppor skill and DRK a aoe shield and you will have a greatly balance roster with great diversity on how each job works, PLD working on his combos and RC, WAR working around inner release and deep gauge management, and DRK being the faster heavy resource management job.

i hope you undertand that gameplay identity/diversity doesnt translate to X job doing moar damage than others or having way more mitigation since you can have several jobs operating way to diferent and still archiving the same performance wich is what i personaly ask.



thats a missconception, on past expansions any new player could just sit on tank stance and do his job perfectly well on the 99% of the game content with the sole exception of savage and ultimate, it wasn't hard to new players get it to it since agro management under tank stance was a joke as it's right now, the hard part comes when you have to start reducing tank stance usage and mid max the rest of the kit to archive the best performance of the job thats again just requested for savage and ultimate and even on savage you could keep being a tank stance baby on the first turns when you team overgear it.

im a

This. This is what sums it up. Aggro management was easy but pulling the min maxing was satisfying. Even though im not a tank main i tanked exs for my fc cause none else did, and that was what i liked.Not only that stance dancing was tied to war identity. The system wasnt overly complex but it gave responsibility to everyone, it gave satisfying min maxing to the good players, a reason for midcore players to improve their style, and it didnt affect those Who couldnt do it at all. The perfect parallel is that 1 Ball is easy to juggle alone but when you put it on top of the other 2 or 3 it made something complex and engaging without ruining the entrance point. But once again pfs made themselves think that if you cant do it i dont want you in my party, and the laziness of some People adding to the horus didnt help, so here we are.

[Mithia]

nope you didn't understand me here, im talking about gameplay not overall performance numbers, for example WAR was always around fell cleave hit harder with preparing his burst windows and DRK was about cosntant manage his MP and priority uses of his resources, and now both are just unga bunga inner delirium desing with no variance whatsoever.

Not really, I did not misunderstand you. I'm well aware of what went on with tanks in the last few years. I'll say this again, the class design can be so amazing and satisfying and people will still leave the class for a far worse designed class that if it remotely performs better.

Paladin would be the best case and point, why did no one play a paladin in HW? Because it was far inferior to the WAR or DRK.

all tanks need to have similar damage ouput like now and how they did in SB last tier, have similar mitigation potential and around the same utility, but that's doesnt mean every tank should be doing unga-bunga requiem inner delirium or have the same copy pasted mitigation tools and raid shields, here is the main diference.

Every class should be able to do the same but it shouldn't be an exact copy. Got it, there are still numerous distinctive abilities that set the jobs apart from each other. While there may be similarities, that doesn't mean that it's exactly the same. Yes, you have a cooldown that allows you to burst, woopdie do. Try to balance 4 classes without any form of homogenization or when they have these "Job identifying specialties" which usually bottles down "War dishes out most dmg", "PLD shields the party", "DRK is best in magic environments", "GNB does best in... who cares he has a gunblade".

No, WAR's where crying about not having a party-wide CD because their dmg wasn't far superior to PLD or DRK anymore. So, SE gave them a party-wide CD although it doesn't make much sense but hey. Let's give the best tanks out there some more utility to really solidify themselves in the meta.

I hardly saw a WAR crying about job identity back then.

But ok, let's establish for now that players all want a Sheltron-like ability and something that encompasses the entire party like Divine Veil. But WAR and DRK has to hit the hardest because they don't have a shield, it only makes sense!

if we look at SB last days and you give a WAR an single target suppor skill and DRK an aoe shield you will have a greatly balance roster with great diversity on how each job works, PLD working on his combos and RC, WAR working around inner release and deep gauge management, and DRK being the faster heavy resource management job.

So, PLD gets his combo's and RC, but WAR gets a single target support skill and DRK can now use a divine veil-like shield.

Odd, so, PLD gets nothing... PLD had no AoE mind. But that was fine in actual content like savage or ultimate. But let's forget for a moment about their lack of AoE abilities.

Why should the other jobs with their superior rotations and intricateness require job identifying abilities from the paladin? Just let it sink in from a moment.

i hope you undertand that gameplay identity/diversity doesnt translate to X job doing moar damage than others or having way more mitigation since you can have several jobs operating way to diferent and still archiving the same performance wich is what i personaly ask.

There are indeed different ways to go about class identity, but it's impossible to create fights that balanced for all 4 classes. The way CD's work, the way their dps works, etc etc. That's why homogenization is a necessity in the name of balance and accessibility for all jobs. Currently, tanks are in the best position that they have ever been as you won't decline a job, you'll decline the player when forming groups. And that is good game design.

thats a missconception, on past expansions any new player could just sit on tank stance and do his job perfectly well on the 99% of the game content with the sole exception of savage and ultimate, it wasn't hard to new players get it to it since agro management under tank stance was a joke as it's right now, the hard part comes when you have to start reducing tank stance usage and mid max the rest of the kit to archive the best performance of the job thats again just requested for savage and ultimate and even on savage you could keep being a tank stance baby on the first turns when you team overgear it.

Do you hear yourself? When you can out gear the content you can sit in tank stance and let the party do the dps for you.

We aren't talking about dungeons when it comes down to job accessibility, we are talking about actual endgame content like Savage raids or Ultimates. More people then ever got into raiding, which is healthy for the game! Why can't you understand that the previous iterations of tanks was needlessly complex and the only result was that PLD got shafted in favor of the big damage dealers.

[shao32]

Not really, I did not misunderstand you. I'm well aware of what went on with tanks in the last few years. I'll say this again, the class design can be so amazing and satisfying and people will still leave the class for a far worse designed class that if it remotely performs better.

And? buff the jobs thats the thing, balance is about numbers not gameplay design at the end just buff the job number, don't give it inner release.

Paladin would be the best case and point, why did no one play a paladin in HW? Because it was far inferior to the WAR or DRK.

PLD not only was the worst mitigation tank in HW and do lower dps, his gameplay was boring as hell, was only royal authority and goring blade all day, compared to the complex WAR and DRK gameplay the job hardest part was fight the monotomy, and after that they could buffed his defensive kit and his overall dps and solved the balanced problems easily without touching the gameplay, again a job performing worse than others it's a question of numbers not design.

Every class should be able to do the same but it shouldn't be an exact copy. Got it, there are still numerous distinctive abilities that set the jobs apart from each other. While there may be similarities, that doesn't mean that it's exactly the same. Yes, you have a cooldown that allows you to burst, woopdie do. Try to balance 4 classes without any form of homogenization or when they have these "Job identifying specialties" which usually bottles down "War dishes out most dmg", "PLD shields the party", "DRK is best in magic environments", "GNB does best in... who cares he has a gunblade".

you keep going into job specialitys WAR doing most damage, DRK magic beast ect ect ect and that's have nothing to do wich what i said.

example here, SAM and BLM, both jobs selfish high dps, gameplays can't be more diferent betwen this 2 and are pretty well balanced right now whats your point now?, homogenization should always come over job performance not job gameplay about how they archive that damage, or mitigation or support the party wich is where current tanks desings fails.

No, WAR's where crying about not having a party-wide CD because their dmg wasn't far superior to PLD or DRK anymore. So, SE gave them a party-wide CD although it doesn't make much sense but hey. Let's give the best tanks out there some more utility to really solidify themselves in the meta.

I hardly saw a WAR crying about job identity back then.

WARs complaing that they didn't have any kind of utility no not having a raid mitigation tool and still despite they get a raid shield like PLD it's works way diferent from divine shield with is own perks that make the skill unique and not being superior to DV despite being the same kind of utility wich is the point here.

now compared this to the lazy implementation of dark missionary and heart of light both being a 15% magic damage mitigation with the same recast oferring nothing to the identity of DRK and GNB.

But ok, let's establish for now that players all want a Sheltron-like ability and something that encompasses the entire party like Divine Veil. But WAR and DRK has to hit the hardest because they don't have a shield, it only makes sense!

So, PLD gets his combo's and RC, but WAR gets a single target support skill and DRK can now use a divine veil-like shield.

Odd, so, PLD gets nothing... PLD had no AoE mind. But that was fine in actual content like savage or ultimate. But let's forget for a moment about their lack of AoE abilities.

Why should the other jobs with their superior rotations and intricateness require job identifying abilities from the paladin? Just let it sink in from a moment.

gameplay diversity perhaps? not every job needs to be a complex machine to archive great results and having diferent gameplays you could easily target diferent players demographics, WAR and DRK being more intricate with they gameplay in they orn way make them unique, PLD being less complex and still archiving the same result make it a perfect choice for ppl who want something more simple to manage, if you make everything the same then you make most of the players demographic have nothing to play wich is as a example a problem for me right now.

There are indeed different ways to go about class identity, but it's impossible to create fights that balanced for all 4 classes. The way CD's work, the way their dps works, etc etc. That's why homogenization is a necessity in the name of balance and accessibility for all jobs. Currently, tanks are in the best position that they have ever been as you won't decline a job, you'll decline the player when forming groups. And that is good game design.

Tell that to the entire dps roster, each one being complete unique, some having burst tipe of damage, others having more sustained damage, having high personal dps or having low personal dps but ofering powerful raid buffs and they still are there, more or less pretty well balanced and no fights desing offer a problem to any of them.

Tanks are in the worst position ever, playing the same the role doesn't really offer gameplay variance, the party contribution it's laugable and our personal mechanics are non existent, we are the most brain dead role of the game right now and this didn't help to raise the tank population numbers.

i played DRK the entire SB, you know the expansion where the job was the worst at dps, mitigation and utility, and the entire 1º tier i did it with pugs all the time from aletier to neo exdeath and i never being rejected for being a DRK not even i find my static later one, no objections so this is mostly a over exageration.

Do you hear yourself? When you can out gear the content you can sit in tank stance and let the party do the dps for you.

We aren't talking about dungeons when it comes down to job accessibility, we are talking about actual endgame content like Savage raids or Ultimates. More people then ever got into raiding, which is healthy for the game! Why can't you understand that the previous iterations of tanks was needlessly complex and the only result was that PLD got shafted in favor of the big damage dealers.

accessibility to savage and ultimate it's a nonsense, the western playerbase are still the one with so low clear rates despite making everything brain dead, ppl getting in to savage it's a problem of western mentality not the game or the jobs, ppl only want fast satisfaction and don't put any real effort most of the time to get things and thats not a problem of the game, if they make everything more accesible then stops being called hard dontent.

tanks wasn't needlessly complex at all, they didn't require more time than a DPS to master the job and the complexity of the role was exagerated, heck even now when veterans complain about how easy and braindead it's everything most ppl still belive tanking is hard, so they didn't fix anything, they just make things way worse, even the JP are complaing that the quality of the role it's pretty low right now.