Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Lium]

True, there is a third option. But when I play as a healer I find that option to be a waste of time and energy. I'm not going to initiate a vote kick just because the tank is going too slow. I've been in plenty of groups where I didn't like the tank's pace. It's annoying to me (especially if it's late at night) but I just suck it up and deal with. I've also bailed on groups as a healer. Plenty of times. I do feel bad for the group sometimes because getting another healer may take a while, but I'm not gonna suffer through a dungeon that should take about 15 minutes to run, lasting more than 30 minutes because the tank is single pulling packs of mobs.

More power to 'em. They can just find a different healer.

[Enla]

Team members also work for the good of the whole team, not just themselves. You can't smokescreen with "you're toxic because you only care about yourselves" while shilling the tank's whims and laziness to the detriment of the whole team.

To be fair we had a not so small discussion awhile back about how rescuing the tank is faster and easier than talking to them directly in chat, so it absolutely goes both ways. Frankly I think most of this could be solved just by talking to one another. Most tanks I've met are willing to pull more if the healer doesn't berate them and honestly expresses that they think they and the group can handle it. Even when I had the worst of my tankxiety I would be willing to pull a lot more than I was comfortable with if the healer actually talked to me and treated me like a teammate, rather than a meat shield.

This whole issue could literally be solved if either side stopped assuming they're above basic communication.

[LuciferNacht]

...

What?
No but seriously what?

What is a pull? It's an enemy being grabbed and the start of battle right?

What is pull size? It's the amount of enemies encompassed in that pull.

Pacing is a result of pullsize in this context. Single pull = slower pacing
Double pull = faster pacing.

What role is inherently responsible for initiating and maintaining the pull while another party keeps that party alive, hopefully dpses and the last party mainly burns it to the ground?

The tank. That's the tanks job.

Its also clear you haven't actually read this thread because no one is even advocating that the tank is the most important or the leader. They just naturally by nature of their role control the pull. That's how MMOs work. That's basic. That's fundamental.

Now if the party can handle larger pulls (because that depends on the healers ability to heal and the dpses ability to provide adequate dps to kill the mobs quickly enough) then notifying the tank that they can do the larger pulls is so simple.

Like it shouldnt be hard to be like "hey you can double pull I can handle this". Just like there are varying levels of tanks, there are varying levels of healers and some of them can't keep up with a double pull considering it's reliant on how quickly the team can burn that mob.

This role dynamic is so basic that if mobs focus a healer or dps they more than often die. Tanks are built to grab enmity and hold it. That is what a pull is. That is the tanks job.

As for the rest. Yes you're toxic. It's clear. Vote kicking someone takes more time overall than just being decent and saying "hey pick up the pace, we got this".

[Mavrias]

What?
No but seriously what?

What is a pull? It's an enemy being grabbed and the start of battle right?

What is pull size? It's the amount of enemies encompassed in that pull.

Pacing is a result of pullsize in this context. Single pull = slower pacing
Double pull = faster pacing.

What role is inherently responsible for initiating and maintaining the pull while another party keeps that party alive, hopefully dpses and the last party mainly burns it to the ground?

The tank. That's the tanks job.

Its also clear you haven't actually read this thread because no one is even advocating that the tank is the most important or the leader. They just naturally by nature of their role control the pull. That's how MMOs work. That's basic. That's fundamental.

Now if the party can handle larger pulls (because that depends on the healers ability to heal and the dpses ability to provide adequate dps to kill the mobs quickly enough) then notifying the tank that they can do the larger pulls is so simple.

Like it shouldnt be hard to be like "hey you can double pull I can handle this". Just like there are varying levels of tanks, there are varying levels of healers and some of them can't keep up with a double pull considering it's reliant on how quickly the team can burn that mob.

This role dynamic is so basic that if mobs focus a healer or dps they more than often die. Tanks are built to grab enmity and hold it. That is what a pull is. That is the tanks job.

As for the rest. Yes you're toxic. It's clear. Vote kicking someone takes more time overall than just being decent and saying "hey pick up the pace, we got this".

I think they meant Vote Kick if there's no agreement after asking them to pull more.

[LuciferNacht]

I think they meant Vote Kick if there's no agreement after asking them to pull more.

OH, my bad then. I read that and was mind blown lmao. The part about pacing and pullsize got me.

Yeah then I'll just dip back out. Anyone can choose to vote kick.

Still toxic to just blind vote kick and not talk to people though. We're all human.

[StriderShinryu]

This whole issue could literally be solved if either side stopped assuming they're above basic communication.

Very much this. I would bet money that in the vast majority of content where players are grouping in an pre-organized manner, whether it be with friends, FC mates, in a static, in a PF group, etc. there is at least some level of communication. As soon as it's a random group put together by the game, however, everyone seems to forget that they can talk.

Idiots are gonna idiot and snowflakes are gonna snowflake but the vast majority of players in the game would be willing to cooperate if they just spoke up and said what they wanted. And, put simply, if you're doing content in a randomly organized group and aren't willing to cooperate then I think you really need to look in the mirror when it comes to where the problem lies. And that goes regardless of your "side" in arguments like this.

[Veis_Alveare]

Well, here's the thing. If the tank is not pulling to your liking, you can ask them to pull more. If they are not comfortable with doing that, you have two options. Suck it up and deal with it, or leave the group. As a healer, leaving the group is no big deal. You have to eat a penalty, but after it wears off, you have near instant queues.

Life is not complicated.

You also have the option of continuing to pull.

If a tank doesn't establish threat on enemies engaged with his party members he's not fulfilling his primary function, refusal to participate is against the ToS and is reportable.

[iilan]

You also have the option of continuing to pull.

If a tank doesn't establish threat on enemies engaged with his party members he's not fulfilling his primary function, refusal to participate is against the ToS and is reportable.

Except that you literally quoted the part where they said "are not comfortable with doing that." If you continue to pull extra mobs when they have already explicitly stated their comfort level, then you're literally just griefing them so you have the ability to vote kick. Are you honestly going to report someone for "refusal to participate" because you can't accept someone's ability or comfort level? Because the tank is 100% not the problem if you are just looking for reasons to report folks.

[Awha]

OH, my bad then. I read that and was mind blown lmao. The part about pacing and pullsize got me.

Yeah then I'll just dip back out. Anyone can choose to vote kick.

Still toxic to just blind vote kick and not talk to people though. We're all human.

Outside of raids I do see much issue when healers or dps feel the need to pull for me. It does not over complicate my role per-se depends if they face pull a pack of mobs and the group is so far away that they die before we can get to them. Overall though if a dps pulls I just grab the aggro and call it a day. Tank pulling is more convenient granted but it is not the end of the world if someone else pulls for the group if they are smart about it.

For me personally I do not think the tank is the only one who is capable of pulling. When I am new to a dungeon I rather have someone with experience lead the way and I just snap aggro off of them so I can get a feel for pull size from those that have ran it.

[LuciferNacht]

Outside of raids I do see much issue when healers or dps feel the need to pull for me. It does not over complicate my role per-se depends if they face pull a pack of mobs and the group is so far away that they die before we can get to them. Overall though if a dps pulls I just grab the aggro and call it a day. Tank pulling is more convenient granted but it is not the end of the world if someone else pulls for the group if they are smart about it.

For me personally I do not think the tank is the only one who is capable of pulling. When I am new to a dungeon I rather have someone with experience lead the way and I just snap aggro off of them so I can get a feel for pull size from those that have ran it.

It's ok to have a personal preference but your preference isn't the majority experience for this game. The tank, healer, dps dynamic is well established in MMOs beyond just FFXIV.

And at the end of the day, the bottom line is a simple line of text in party chat alleviates all this nonsense posturing about personal opinions.

Public content is about teamwork. It's not hard to communicate and if it is hard for someone maybe they should be playing solo games. It's not just about one person.