Is TBN a bad skill?

[Izsha]

Sure but in equation of Incoming damage > tank > healer you dont have any other party members, there is no DPS in this game that could potentially contribute into tanks damage received, only by killing things faster but it does not change the incoming damage directly in any way. There are tanks and healers, thas it.

Not true at all. Dps have mitigation skills and healing abilities that work towards the goal. Addle for magic damage, feint for physical damage. Actions like bards troubadour. All of these and more directly reduce damage. Then of course theres all the healing skills (self heals, mantra, etc) dps have to lighten the load and help balance the damage vs mitigation+healing.

Everyone has tools to mitigate and heal. Tanks and healers just have the brunt of it.

No 1 skill prevents healer gcds. The combined effect of all skills prevent healer gcds.

[EpicOverlord85]

Xenonys Vex the streamer the other day kept going on and on about how he thinks TBN is a bad skill. I think his argument is that it's a CD that takes resources to use and thus lowers your overall damage output.

He acknowledges that most people love the skill and he is in the minority. My question is, IS it a bad skill? I mean it's pretty powerful but is it really just a burden to DRK and needs a tweak?

It’s our best and most unique skill at this point and I don’t want Square screwing with it.

[TouchandFeel]

Is the skill bad?
Yes and no depending how you look at it and what framing you use to determine what constitutes "good" and "bad".
I won't go into the exacts of the differing viewpoints as I feel the posts already made in the thread cover those pretty adequately and show how the ability can both be seen as bad and seen as good, with both sides bringing legitimate points forward.

However, for all its "cons" to go with its "pros" or in a ways because of them, I really like TBN and it is my favourite defensive ability in the game. I like that it has some caveats to it that require a measure of intelligent usage as it forces a little more engagement in the defensive game-play niche for the tank role, something that as others have stated is perhaps a bit lacking. Honestly, I wish the other tanks had defensive abilities like TBN, not exactly like it of course, where there was a built in level of risk/reward to their usage.
Just to be clear, not caveats like the "be healed or die" of Living Dead, that is a bad implementation of such a caveat; ones that are under the control of and require intelligent usage by the tank player, not relying on others to save us from our own abilities.

I do however feel, and even predicted at the beginning of the expansion, that TBN being made 25% of the character's HP with no change to duration has resulted in the ability out-pacing the content a bit, greatly diminishing where and how it can be used properly and breaking as it should. It really should have 1-2 seconds added to it's duration to compensate for the greater pace of power gain that we experience progressing through an expansion versus the lesser pace of increasing difficulty.

[SpiralMask]

@OP short answer: no
long answer: nnnnnnnooooooooooo--

[Quor]

This isn't a surprising take from Xenosys Vex. I've raided with him before, and I used to watch his guide vids. He's very DPS centered on tank. That's his whole jam. He was a WAR main for a long time, and in FCoB he totally overlotted the tomestone and took it instead of the DPS in his group, on their first clear of Phoenix. He's that much into believing in tanks doing a lot of DPS, as much DPS as possible. In Heavensward he was notorious for telling his healers, "I wasn't topped." when he died from either popping a CD late or not just manning up and going into Defiance to Equilibrium himself(healer dead or stunned or something). Someone even made that bike meme about him, the one where the rider thrusts the pipe into their own spoke, and then blames their crash on someone else. Obviously he's a very good player, and operates well in a hardcore raid environment where blame flies back and forth, and while nobody is super duper consistent at clearing, they're hella good at DPSing and rotations and just need to one run where they're clean to win. His opinions are really only ever reflective of that type of group and environment though, not of the game at large.

So, of course he doesn't like The Blackest Night. Nevermind the fact that it lets you have all sorts of fun. Like in Eden 1 Savage I used it so that melee DPS could double up their gravity puddles, positioning wasn't a bear, and it always triggered my consolation Edge/Flood. It's a shame they toned down Savage boss auto attack damage. In the 3rd and 4th tiers of Savage in Stormblood for each tier, you could usually have your TBK break from the boss's autos alone, in one or two, depending on the boss. You just had to time it right. Easier to do as the off tank back then too.

Also people say it's "DPS neutral." Only when accounting for the DRK's personal DPS. As long as it saves your healers a GCD, that GCD goes to damage, and that GCD is pretty much at the strength of the Edge you lose if you screw the pooch. Raid DPS wise, it's an indirect gain, when used properly, and a bigger gain if you can use it so that DPS may bypass disengaging/keep uptime. Plus, if its use saves someone from death, this is rare, but if it does... that loss prevention can make or break a clear.

Well said.

"Muh dps" is basically the NPC meme of FF14. As I've said before and I'm sure I'll say many more times in the future, dps only matters after the tanks and healers have performed their primary roles. Nobody is clearing with a healer who just nukes or a tank who doesn't mitigate or position properly. Yes, dps is important, but it is not and never will be the most important thing. Mechanics are more important, and fulfilling your primary role is more important when playing a tank or healer.

As for Xeno, as many others have said he has a particular point of view on the game that is highly limited in scope. Like others have said, I've used TBN to save lives and healer GCD's like no one's business, and I guarantee the Glare and Broil 2 that we gained outdid any potential loss of damage that might have occurred cause I couldn't Edge once.

[Barachim]

I love TBN. It makes me feel like a support tank at times, because many times, I managed to keep dps and healers alive, who would have died otherwise without it.

[Cabalabob]

TBN has a lot going for it, but I’d agree that it is a badly designed skill. Or rather that DRK is overall badly designed.

The shield is extremely powerful, an attack that would 1 shot any other tank won’t kill a DRK using TBN and the recast is only 15 seconds. In savage content where basically anything the boss does will break that shield, TBN is flat out broken because the DRK can practically use it on CD at no dps loss.

But in basically any other content you have to be much more careful when and how you use it, because if that shield doesn’t break then you just wasted a 500 potency attack to use it. Compare that to the other tank’s equivalent skills like PLD’s sheltron. It costs gauge that isn’t used for anything other than sheltron and intervention (and cover but not really) so the PLD can use it on CD to mitigate any fluff damage and can even hold a second charge if it needs it for a tank buster. PLD can literally spam sheltron on “cooldown” at no cost. The same can be said for GNB and WAR to a slightly lesser degree since they don’t have that second charge but the recast is still fairly short.

Basically the other tanks can use their mitigation whenever they want and the only cost of “poor” usage is the recast of the ability itself. But if a DRK makes “poor” usage of TBN it’s costing them both the recast of the ability AND 2k mp (one flood of shadow if we don’t consider AoE).

No other tank has to make that kind of decision between using mitigation and dealing damage. This also nullifies the usefulness of the 15 second recast because you can’t use it on CD unless there is enough damage to warrant it. This is the problem people have with TBN, it’s powerful mitigation yes, but if you aren’t taking a specific threshold of damage in a very small window... you can’t use it (where other tanks could still use theirs).

Then if you look at the rest of DRKs kit, ignoring shadow wall and rampart as generic tools all tanks have, what does DRK bring to the table? Living dead is a garbage skill, Dark mind is situational since it’s magic only, same with dark missionary and then we have TBN, that’s all. DRK is a one trick pony and the trick isn’t very good outside of high level content.

[Seraphor]

The shield is extremely powerful, an attack that would 1 shot any other tank won’t kill a DRK using TBN and the recast is only 15 seconds. In savage content where basically anything the boss does will break that shield, TBN is flat out broken because the DRK can practically use it on CD at no dps loss.

But in basically any other content you have to be much more careful when and how you use it, because if that shield doesn’t break then you just wasted a 500 potency attack to use it. Compare that to the other tank’s equivalent skills like PLD’s sheltron. It costs gauge that isn’t used for anything other than sheltron and intervention (and cover but not really) so the PLD can use it on CD to mitigate any fluff damage and can even hold a second charge if it needs it for a tank buster. PLD can literally spam sheltron on “cooldown” at no cost. The same can be said for GNB and WAR to a slightly lesser degree since they don’t have that second charge but the recast is still fairly short.

The thing is, in anything but savage/ultimate, that dps loss really doesn't mean much.
Perhaps some extremes when progging their first week could do with it to meet dps checks, but many aren't that strict.

[Yuella]

It's a good skill because it's not a braindead cooldown and you actually have to think about how and when to use it.

[Goji1639]

I like how it functions like an active block, making it feel like a defensive action like a dodge or parry instead of just another CD. The short timer allows you to react with it, and that's way more fun than just monitoring a laundry list of long CDs.

As for how good it is, it's obviously very strong in a lot of situations. It's kind of the crux of the Dark Knight class, though, so in situations where it's not strong DRK's have very little else to fall back on. In the levels before you have it the class is brutal.

The thing is, in anything but savage/ultimate, that dps loss really doesn't mean much.
Perhaps some extremes when progging their first week could do with it to meet dps checks, but many aren't that strict.

I'd also assume that in savage/ultimate the damage output is high enough where TBN is almost guaranteed to get eaten on use.