Is TBN a bad skill?

[Absimiliard]

The only real problem with TNB is its MP consumption being looked at by some as a kick in the DPS, but the reality is that it isn't a DPS loss at all if you're using it properly. It instead becomes DPS neutral by way of allowing you to execute Edge of Shadow or what have you for free upon breaking, thereby cancelling out the potential DPS loss. From a purely defensive perspective it is probably by and far the single most powerful cooldown available to players. I would even go so far as to say it is probably overtuned to a point that is actually comical. Not only does it absorb incoming damage, but it does so after factoring in mitigation from any other CD you may have, essentially giving you the ability to just decide you're not taking damage for the next seven seconds if you happen to be willing to stack it with something like Rampart or Shadow Wall.

[Videra]

Xenonys Vex the streamer the other day kept going on and on about how he thinks TBN is a bad skill. I think his argument is that it's a CD that takes resources to use and thus lowers your overall damage output.

He acknowledges that most people love the skill and he is in the minority. My question is, IS it a bad skill? I mean it's pretty powerful but is it really just a burden to DRK and needs a tweak?

Xenosys is a grumpy boy who, while he knows what he's talking about, is very much in the minority here. TBN is only a DPS loss if it doesn't pop, and that's -extraordinarily- rare if you're using it properly. I can totally see the guy's argument, but I do remember in his old video from just after Shadowbringers he honed in on this possibility way too hard. Just as well, even if TBN doesn't pop on that TB, you just mitigated a whole lot of damage at no health cost. I'd say that's worthwhile enough.

Also, TBN is just plain one of the strongest, consistently usable tank cooldowns in the game.

[Hierro]

TBN is really, really powerful. Other forms of mitigation tend to reduce their effectiveness due to diminishing returns. However, with TBN, other CDs are actually made even stronger because TBN is an increase to health, essentially.

It has a duration of 7 seconds, while being on a 15 second cooldown. If there were no MP cost and completely free, there'd be nothing stopping DRK from slamming the button on cooldown to have 25% more HP than the other tanks half the time. That's absolutely bonkers!

I now have a more nuanced opinion of TBN, however, after knowing the complete freedom of healing with NF on WAR-- It feels nice to be able to use NF with impunity, and in getting in the habit of using that defensive on cooldown, I definitely find myself feeling naked and tempted to slam that button whenever it's lit up. In SB, I would more or less spam TBN whenever I knew autos were incoming, but that's when the bubble was only 20% of your HP. The extra 5% has definitely had an effect and I find myself not popping the bubble when getting in the habit of using it "whenever." This means that TBN has been balanced for tank busters and AoEs+following auto, where you have a guarantee of a pop. Now, you COULD optimize your TBN usages and learn the times when there are longer sequences of autos, but man, that's more work than I care to do.

However, since I feel that this tier has been lackluster in tank-busters, TBN's tankbuster specialty is somewhat overkill. So, all things considered, I think TBN's been overall lowkey nerfed from SB to ShB.

Still an awesome CD tho.

[FallenWings]

Frankly there should be more skills like TBN in a tanks kit to so that defensive actions hold more weight and aren't just effectively glamorized "Duty Action" buttons that force groups to have a tank in their composition. The argument that defensives shouldn't be mixed with damage is a shallow 'quality of life' that simply deteoriates tank complexity further so that people can continue to play Blue DPS without having to deal with *ugh* tank mechanics. /s

A tank optimizing their defensive CDs should aid in the win condition and not just be an action that simply prevents loss. We need more kit interactions and not standalone buttons that have no synergy with eachother.

In regards to the value of TBN within the DRK kit.

TBN is 3000 mana spent to gain 25% HP and 500+ potency.

Edge of Night is 500 potency.


Most of the time being healthier and more sturdy does absolutely nothing and that is a design flaw of tanks as a whole. But the idea that TBN is a "neutral" button in comparison to Edge is misguided. You gain 25% hp shield (and a stored Edge over the cap to burst in raid buffs; as neutered as they are now). Whether you value that or not is up to you. But the mindset breeds too many garbage dps DRKs with minimal/no TBN usage.

[Hierro]

Most of the time being healthier and more sturdy does absolutely nothing and that is a design flaw of tanks as a whole. But the idea that TBN is a "neutral" button in comparison to Edge is misguided. You gain 25% hp shield (and a stored Edge over the cap to burst in raid buffs; as neutered as they are now). Whether you value that or not is up to you. But the mindset breeds too many garbage dps DRKs with minimal/no TBN usage.

I don't know if I'd go as far as saying that calling TBN bad creates a population of DRKs that avoid the button like the plague, but you've stated that there's no point to being tankier most of the time, and TBN's sturdiness makes it less apt to being thrown out for autos. You realistically have a button that's only going to be used for specific mechanics i.e. raidwides and tankbusters. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in the slightest, it's perfect for a tank's function, but is limited in ways the other tanks' CDs are not, while others have been just as effectiveness in such situations as well.

[Lukeal]

Frankly there should be more skills like TBN in a tanks kit to so that defensive actions hold more weight and aren't just effectively glamorized "Duty Action" buttons that force groups to have a tank in their composition. The argument that defensives shouldn't be mixed with damage is a shallow 'quality of life' that simply deteoriates tank complexity further so that people can continue to play Blue DPS without having to deal with *ugh* tank mechanics. /s

Honestly when you put it that way, Gunbreaker really fits that *Blue DPS* mentality. I didn't really pay much attention to it until now but none of its mitigation really has any weight to it. HoS is ok but the brutal shell effect on it feels like an afterthought; Aurora is good but due to its healing it really feels like Second Wind except in regen form. None of it's abilities have tank weight if that makes any sense, the only thing it's got going for is the Continuation combo which just sends it much further into the "Blue Dps" category than the other three tanks that i'm starting to wonder if it was initially supposed to be a Maiming Dps like DRG and then they dropped that idea cause they really for some reason wanted another Tank. Gunbreaker in this light feels more like an evolution of how people have been playing tanks for years now with the DPS mindset while they really SHOULD be looking at dark knights TBN for a a good example of Tank identity.

[FallenWings]

TBN itself doesn't necessarily create the bad population.

I'm just miffed that people spread it around that TBN shouldn't be pressed more often when it is a virtually free 25% HP gain over Edge. Virtually because it requires a modicum of fight optimization and inadvertently hemorrhages your DPS for willy nilly spamming it without regard. Which in my eyes is a good tank mechanic. Mitigating meaningfully and effectively *should* enable the tank player into a gain, even if minor.

It is usually DPS neutral. But it is a HP gain and that is something that is always left out when advice about it is given. Something tank players should inherently value and optimize more for when/if it gains them healer dps ironically.

SE failing to make mitigation/healing impactful/meaningful/difficult and the community's fairly justified fixation on ONRY DPS as the only valued metric makes for a bad time to be a tank. Especially in our current state of low impact, low difficulty DPS rotation difficulty, and overall poor auto tanking fight designs.

FFlogs should showcase a tanks CD usage alongside their percentile tbh. No more people seeing orange parses and assuming good tank when said parses have like 1 rampart casts, 1 Shadow wall casts and 3 tbn casts for a 13 minute fight.

[Kleeya]

TBN, best tanking skill ever. I feel naked when i dont have it anymore when synched under 70. It even allows you to negate some debuffs launched at you and do some stunts other jobs can not do. For example do you see that nasty piercing debuff marker Nariphon can give you right before a piercing damage stack marker on another player ? With TBN you can laugh of the first marker, and go stack after that to help the other players out.

But still i am not suprised to see yet again people complaining of it because it hurts their beloved dps and orange parses on fflogs. They did learn nothing of the butchering of the old AST cards, so yes let's TBN become another plain rempart cd and complain after that that tanks jobs are becoming more and more the same, SE why do you homogenize jobs that much ? XD

I sometimes wonder if we shouldn't get rid of the trinity, makes every jobs dps ones, gives them all a viable defensive and healing skill, and be done with it.

FFlogs should showcase a tanks CD usage alongside their percentile tbh. No more people seeing orange parses and assuming good tank when said parses have like 1 rampart casts, 1 Shadow wall casts and 3 tbn casts for a 13 minute fight.

I still don't get how it isn't already a thing, along with how well healers have been healing, rezzing, mitigating, and not overhealing.

[Awful]

TBN is actually busted I used to use it in E4S during the final Stonecrusher where I could Rampart + TBN then Living Dead the rest of the hits + Double tank stack and live with a Bene made it so we only had to use 1 tank for that it's pretty absurd, it's up for every TB too or whenever I need to cover my co-tank in E6S. On that note though I see where Xenos is coming from it is DPS neutral and they shouldn't tie those into the realm of tank DPS because it's not very well designed, you have to time TBN in E5S to break once you start getting more gear on a more stricter time vs say Garuda on the pull in E6S because it'll break much easier, same in E7S the auto attacks don't break the shield as fast.

I do like TBN though it's the only thing that defines DRK in this lack of class identity that we're in having an absurd on-demand tank CD is amazing and when you can get creative with it it's amazing, I've saved so many people in the raid too not just myself but it's not without its faults. You should never ignore TBN though if a TB is gonna hit you and you have it up use it, just because someone said they don't like it or that they hate it doesn't mean it's not good tanks still need to use CDs regardless of the situation either if it's their own hide or someone elses.

[KageTokage]

The only thing I don't like about TBN is that it has a rather pronounced delay before it actually triggers compared to a lot of other defensive cooldowns.