Is TBN a bad skill?

[AncientCrystal]

Xenonys Vex the streamer the other day kept going on and on about how he thinks TBN is a bad skill. I think his argument is that it's a CD that takes resources to use and thus lowers your overall damage output.

He acknowledges that most people love the skill and he is in the minority. My question is, IS it a bad skill? I mean it's pretty powerful but is it really just a burden to DRK and needs a tweak?

[shao32]

TBN is the most powerful shield of the game, Xeno don't like it bcs mix mitigation and DPS performance but the shield is just to strong and it's the primary reason why DRK have the best defensive kit against tank busters since any combination of TBN with rampant, dark mind or shadow wall making you laught against them.

TBN is at the same time the only unique mechanic the job remain after the identity slaughter SE comit against the job, the shield meaby need a nerf of 5% to make it more easy to break and DRK don't reallly need all that mitigation but outside of that the skill don't need changes.

[Billythepancake]

TBN is often considered one of the best tank CDs in the game. It shields for a lot, and as long as it bursts, you end up DPS neutral. As well as being on a really short timer. The only thing that sort of sucks about it is that if it doesn't pop you end up wasting resources.

[Kabooa]

Something can be powerful and still be bad - It's about comparing it to its contemporaries.

Objectively, TBN is the absolute strongest short CD Tanking cooldown. It is +25% of Maximum EHP, period, for 7 seconds that doesn't require healing until damage breaks past that portion, self or cotank.

By comparison, Rampart is +25% of current EHP.

Shelltron is +25% of current EHP, bypassed by Criticals, is Block, and therefore cannot stack with Parry.

Intervention is 11/11 to self and cotank, and adding 50% of additional cooldowns to your co-tank. By itself it is weak and requires additional cooldowns to bridge the gap.

Raw Intuition is +25% of current EHP, but locks out Nascent Flash, which is stronger. Nascent Flash, however, is sustain and is effectively +0% EHP to the Warrior, and +11% to the cotank. Nascent Flash won't prevent the 1shot.

Heart of Stone is +20% of current EHP to the target.

However, of all these abilities, TBN has the potential to fail and cost 500 / 300*Target potency if it doesn't break.

People like to focus on the extremes. The "Best case" is equivalent, and the "worst case" is significantly worse, but that big fat area in the middle, TBN generally stomps the rest.

The odds of failing the TBN win condition are pretty slim, but it can happen, and when it does, it is certainly the worst of the bunch.

[AncientCrystal]

TBN is the most powerful shield of the game, Xeno don't like it bcs mix mitigation and DPS performance but the shield is just to strong and it's the primary reason why DRK have the best defensive kit against tank busters since any combination of TBN with rampant, dark mind or shadow wall making you laught against them.

TBN is at the same time the only unique mechanic the job remain after the identity slaughter SE comit against the job, the shield meaby need a nerf of 5% to make it more easy to break and DRK don't reallly need all that mitigation but outside of that the skill don't need changes.

Ya I agree. I mean it seems to me Xeno is too elitist and all he cares about is damage output, but I like how it's a great defensive skill that is unique.

[Fluffernuff]

Xeno has a particular "brand" and it doesnt agree with everyone. but dismissing someone's opinions on the basis of elitism is... hypocrisy at best.


For what it is worth, I also disagree with it being "bad" at face value. I would need to hear the actual angle of what is bad and why.


to play devil's advocate for a second, though... for all of it's strengths and uniqueness, TBN is a horribly designed skill. Trying to blend DPS and defensive utility together IS unique.... but pretty flawed. Youre now in a position where you either choose, or throw one of the 2 benefits under the bus. As it stands, TBN isn't used SOLELY for it's shield. It's only used if the shield *will* break. (read: Tankbusters/mass pulls). this diminishes it's usage and it's utility. You're also not using it for it's DPS because it's..... neutral. if it works.

I can certainly see why someone would consider that bad. The other tank cooldowns dont have such a.... "cost" or "tax"

[shao32]

Xeno has a particular "brand" and it doesnt agree with everyone. but dismissing someone's opinions on the basis of elitism is... hypocrisy at best.


For what it is worth, I also disagree with it being "bad" at face value. I would need to hear the actual angle of what is bad and why.


to play devil's advocate for a second, though... for all of it's strengths and uniqueness, TBN is a horribly designed skill. Trying to blend DPS and defensive utility together IS unique.... but pretty flawed. Youre now in a position where you either choose, or throw one of the 2 benefits under the bus. As it stands, TBN isn't used SOLELY for it's shield. It's only used if the shield *will* break. (read: Tankbusters/mass pulls). this diminishes it's usage and it's utility. You're also not using it for it's DPS because it's..... neutral. if it works.

I can certainly see why someone would consider that bad. The other tank cooldowns dont have such a.... "cost" or "tax"

Just bcs It adds a risk factor doesn't make It horribly designed, some ppl like to have real deep in their Jobs and not brainless use and forgeth skills, thats why TBN is so nice in more than a way and will love if other tanks could have that level of deep in theyr kits.

Outside of that there is a real flaw on TBN and its the current design it's actually a DPS increase due you being able to storage a free Edge to use It on raid buffs, this is really important due MP management on DRK is no more and the burst usage of his MP make TBN don't have a real dps neutral nature, but that's a problem about DRK MP economy that i will adress soon in a feedback post.

Just bcs something require more steps or have more things to keep in mind doesn't make it bad, thats how you end destroying jobs ubique gameplay by making everything the same effort brainless stuff bcs "i have to work more for the same result" actitude that some have (note this last thing is a general claim not to you ^^)

[Nedkel]

to play devil's advocate for a second, though... for all of it's strengths and uniqueness, TBN is a horribly designed skill. Trying to blend DPS and defensive utility together IS unique.... but pretty flawed. Youre now in a position where you either choose, or throw one of the 2 benefits under the bus. As it stands, TBN isn't used SOLELY for it's shield. It's only used if the shield *will* break. (read: Tankbusters/mass pulls). this diminishes it's usage and it's utility. You're also not using it for it's DPS because it's..... neutral. if it works.

I can certainly see why someone would consider that bad. The other tank cooldowns dont have such a.... "cost" or "tax"

You are wrong, its the best skill in the game with the best design and flavour, at least when it comes to mitigation.

It makes you think and risk, and it does give a big reward, both to you and your healer, it cost something so you cant just use it mindlessly every time its up.
Would it be better if TBN cost nothing and give only 10% shield with 60 sec cooldown without any reward for breaking it? NO NO NO
What a "better designed skill" would look like for you that isnt already a copy-paste thing from another job? Jesus stop pretending you know any better, you guys want to get rid of unique mechanics because you find it annoying, play different job for sake of everything that isnt dumbed down yet to the grey standards, thanks.

I am sorry that this post isn't as composed as I originally wanted it to be. Guess, I am a little frustrated that the tank role -that I play for more than 3 years- has taken such a beat. The whole role is flooded with flaws, scarcities, and cuts, in addition to the dev team reacting very slow and reserved to any changes whatsoever -on top of the current situation we're facing which delays the excruciatingly slow changes (if any) even further.
Warrior can mitigate/heal more with Nascent Flash if they deal more damage, Vengeance can give additional damage. Gunbreaker can enhance HoS with Brutal Shell (even tho its just a 150 pot shield), and Paladin Intervention with Rampart or Sentinel. Dark Knight is just there, and tells himself "well, at least I come out dps neutral."
And literally every single person I know -those who also played the current iteration of DRK- said that TBN is "just so bad". They confirmed the shield is strong and nice, but the proc mechanic is just so annoying, they end up using it like 3 times in 15 min -outside of Ultimate. In Ultimate, they just play DRK (or healers want them to play it) because TBN just procs on every auto-attack, so there is no risk, which makes it "just so good". Again: without the risk, TBN is "just so good". Otherwise it's "just so bad".

Sure compare warrior to the DRK, because that job is such perfect and free from all flaws that its third least played job in the entire game.
TBN is not bad and there is nothing wrong with it the risk is there for the balance factor, the shield is super strong, brings a lot more effective HP comparing to other low cd mitigations but its also risky, and it does not bring any glaring balance problems making DRK a weaker alternative of a tank, instead DRK is a prefered job in the raid thanks to it. Do you realize what would happen if they took away mp cost from it? It would be a copy paste skill of single target shake it off with way higher cooldown and no bonus when breaking it and probably also weaker on top of it because SE would have to balance it out one way or another, would be really bad.

[Daniolaut]

Gods forbid anyone uses their brain, and helps the party to victory by using mitigation or doing something that might lower their damage output but increases their chance at survival.

In however many years and hours I have poured into this game, I never once. Not once, not a single time, come across a party that performed every mechanic properly and then failed the enrage timer.

Not once.

The blackest night is not bad.

Living and losing out on the tiniest of damage is not bad.

Once the North American Community accepts that truth, maybe their clear rates wont be abysmal in comparison to Japan.

[Daniolaut]

Gods forbid anyone uses their brain, and helps the party to victory by using mitigation or doing something that might lower their damage output but increases their chance at survival.

In however many years and hours I have poured into this game, I never once. Not once, not a single time, come across a party that performed every mechanic properly and then failed the enrage timer.

Not once.

The blackest night is not bad.

Living and losing out on the tiniest of damage is not bad.

Once the North American Community accepts that truth, maybe their clear rates wont be abysmal in comparison to Japan.

And on that note...

I cannot count how many times I have failed a duty because -

-A tank purposefully stood in an AOE to push more damage.
-A Healer cast "just one more damage spell" instead of healing the tank that just died to an auto attack.
-A DPS died or wiped the entire raid because they "got greedy."