Is TBN a bad skill?

[AncientCrystal]

Xenonys Vex the streamer the other day kept going on and on about how he thinks TBN is a bad skill. I think his argument is that it's a CD that takes resources to use and thus lowers your overall damage output.

He acknowledges that most people love the skill and he is in the minority. My question is, IS it a bad skill? I mean it's pretty powerful but is it really just a burden to DRK and needs a tweak?

[shao32]

TBN is the most powerful shield of the game, Xeno don't like it bcs mix mitigation and DPS performance but the shield is just to strong and it's the primary reason why DRK have the best defensive kit against tank busters since any combination of TBN with rampant, dark mind or shadow wall making you laught against them.

TBN is at the same time the only unique mechanic the job remain after the identity slaughter SE comit against the job, the shield meaby need a nerf of 5% to make it more easy to break and DRK don't reallly need all that mitigation but outside of that the skill don't need changes.

[Billythepancake]

TBN is often considered one of the best tank CDs in the game. It shields for a lot, and as long as it bursts, you end up DPS neutral. As well as being on a really short timer. The only thing that sort of sucks about it is that if it doesn't pop you end up wasting resources.

[Kabooa]

Something can be powerful and still be bad - It's about comparing it to its contemporaries.

Objectively, TBN is the absolute strongest short CD Tanking cooldown. It is +25% of Maximum EHP, period, for 7 seconds that doesn't require healing until damage breaks past that portion, self or cotank.

By comparison, Rampart is +25% of current EHP.

Shelltron is +25% of current EHP, bypassed by Criticals, is Block, and therefore cannot stack with Parry.

Intervention is 11/11 to self and cotank, and adding 50% of additional cooldowns to your co-tank. By itself it is weak and requires additional cooldowns to bridge the gap.

Raw Intuition is +25% of current EHP, but locks out Nascent Flash, which is stronger. Nascent Flash, however, is sustain and is effectively +0% EHP to the Warrior, and +11% to the cotank. Nascent Flash won't prevent the 1shot.

Heart of Stone is +20% of current EHP to the target.

However, of all these abilities, TBN has the potential to fail and cost 500 / 300*Target potency if it doesn't break.

People like to focus on the extremes. The "Best case" is equivalent, and the "worst case" is significantly worse, but that big fat area in the middle, TBN generally stomps the rest.

The odds of failing the TBN win condition are pretty slim, but it can happen, and when it does, it is certainly the worst of the bunch.

[AncientCrystal]

TBN is the most powerful shield of the game, Xeno don't like it bcs mix mitigation and DPS performance but the shield is just to strong and it's the primary reason why DRK have the best defensive kit against tank busters since any combination of TBN with rampant, dark mind or shadow wall making you laught against them.

TBN is at the same time the only unique mechanic the job remain after the identity slaughter SE comit against the job, the shield meaby need a nerf of 5% to make it more easy to break and DRK don't reallly need all that mitigation but outside of that the skill don't need changes.

Ya I agree. I mean it seems to me Xeno is too elitist and all he cares about is damage output, but I like how it's a great defensive skill that is unique.

[Fluffernuff]

Xeno has a particular "brand" and it doesnt agree with everyone. but dismissing someone's opinions on the basis of elitism is... hypocrisy at best.


For what it is worth, I also disagree with it being "bad" at face value. I would need to hear the actual angle of what is bad and why.


to play devil's advocate for a second, though... for all of it's strengths and uniqueness, TBN is a horribly designed skill. Trying to blend DPS and defensive utility together IS unique.... but pretty flawed. Youre now in a position where you either choose, or throw one of the 2 benefits under the bus. As it stands, TBN isn't used SOLELY for it's shield. It's only used if the shield *will* break. (read: Tankbusters/mass pulls). this diminishes it's usage and it's utility. You're also not using it for it's DPS because it's..... neutral. if it works.

I can certainly see why someone would consider that bad. The other tank cooldowns dont have such a.... "cost" or "tax"

[Daniolaut]

Gods forbid anyone uses their brain, and helps the party to victory by using mitigation or doing something that might lower their damage output but increases their chance at survival.

In however many years and hours I have poured into this game, I never once. Not once, not a single time, come across a party that performed every mechanic properly and then failed the enrage timer.

Not once.

The blackest night is not bad.

Living and losing out on the tiniest of damage is not bad.

Once the North American Community accepts that truth, maybe their clear rates wont be abysmal in comparison to Japan.

[Daniolaut]

Gods forbid anyone uses their brain, and helps the party to victory by using mitigation or doing something that might lower their damage output but increases their chance at survival.

In however many years and hours I have poured into this game, I never once. Not once, not a single time, come across a party that performed every mechanic properly and then failed the enrage timer.

Not once.

The blackest night is not bad.

Living and losing out on the tiniest of damage is not bad.

Once the North American Community accepts that truth, maybe their clear rates wont be abysmal in comparison to Japan.

And on that note...

I cannot count how many times I have failed a duty because -

-A tank purposefully stood in an AOE to push more damage.
-A Healer cast "just one more damage spell" instead of healing the tank that just died to an auto attack.
-A DPS died or wiped the entire raid because they "got greedy."

[shao32]

Xeno has a particular "brand" and it doesnt agree with everyone. but dismissing someone's opinions on the basis of elitism is... hypocrisy at best.


For what it is worth, I also disagree with it being "bad" at face value. I would need to hear the actual angle of what is bad and why.


to play devil's advocate for a second, though... for all of it's strengths and uniqueness, TBN is a horribly designed skill. Trying to blend DPS and defensive utility together IS unique.... but pretty flawed. Youre now in a position where you either choose, or throw one of the 2 benefits under the bus. As it stands, TBN isn't used SOLELY for it's shield. It's only used if the shield *will* break. (read: Tankbusters/mass pulls). this diminishes it's usage and it's utility. You're also not using it for it's DPS because it's..... neutral. if it works.

I can certainly see why someone would consider that bad. The other tank cooldowns dont have such a.... "cost" or "tax"

Just bcs It adds a risk factor doesn't make It horribly designed, some ppl like to have real deep in their Jobs and not brainless use and forgeth skills, thats why TBN is so nice in more than a way and will love if other tanks could have that level of deep in theyr kits.

Outside of that there is a real flaw on TBN and its the current design it's actually a DPS increase due you being able to storage a free Edge to use It on raid buffs, this is really important due MP management on DRK is no more and the burst usage of his MP make TBN don't have a real dps neutral nature, but that's a problem about DRK MP economy that i will adress soon in a feedback post.

Just bcs something require more steps or have more things to keep in mind doesn't make it bad, thats how you end destroying jobs ubique gameplay by making everything the same effort brainless stuff bcs "i have to work more for the same result" actitude that some have (note this last thing is a general claim not to you ^^)

[Fluffernuff]

It has very little to do with "risk factor" and I didnt even mention the word. I called it a cost. or a tax for it's strength. Frankly, DRK isn't exactly a stranger to these oddball abilities that have these conflicting and mutually exclusive effects. You can't dodge and parry at the same time. but hey, thats what DA+DD did.

Also there isnt anything I stated about being "use and forget" or anything about "using brainpower". I'd like to assume the bare minimum basic competency with what you choose to main or bring into higher content where this sort of thing is even a discussion point. I highly doubt the leaders of your chosen job are clueless. Since this thread is about him, I highly doubt someone like Xeno is too dumb to appreciate TBN.

On that note, though. TBN as it is now.... it's already a "fire and forget" ability. it's proactive. a shield. you specifically use it on predicted damage you already know is over the threshold to pop it. you do that to remove whatever risk there is to it. which is the exact reason its so absurdly strong compared to it's competition. The issue (if you want to even call it that) for me is the fact that tying the DPS element to it, neutral or otherwise, simply constricts it's usability. You can't use it to help in a pinch without taking a loss. If you want to use it to use flood, you.... use flood instead. The only way I can see anything being risked is simply misjudging the incoming damage. which frankly has little to do with anything with TBN itself. Making mistakes isnt exclusive to DRK or TBN.

But I'm getting focused on this aspect I wasnt even discussing. So to put it another way;


TBN has a very... specific use:
If you use it in all situations as a bubble(read: fire and forget), you're using it wrong.
If you use TBN simply to have it pop and get a use of flood..... you were already better off using flood in the first place.

You dont really have the freedom or choice to use it when it's best. Or to actually help the group when it's needed. Yknow. to actually use it when that brain of yours thinks it's best. You either use it in a dire situation and hope for the best, use it as it's scripted, or try to be creative and find yourself with 33% less mp.

There's always that little something tied to TBN that just makes you go "well, that sucks". And i dont think that's really a quality you could call "good".
That's why I would call it "horribly designed". Any "risk" or "thoughtful use" is the result of overcoming the hurdle of it's own effects being at odd with itself.



All that said, whether or not you can agree with that is whatever. I'm not really arguing for myself. simply giving a counter argument for the sake of discussion. TBN is a divisive skill, and I can definitely see, and we've all already heard why some people are or are not a fan of it. My own thoughts kind of fall in the middle. I'm not sure I would personally call it bad. If anything, the worst I would call TBN is... "unhealthy" or "unbalanced". Perhaps too powerful for it's cooldown.