Can we please get aggro management back?

[Awha]

Not understanding your own limits (and subsequently, overestimating them) is something I would find understandable in pre-50 dungeons. It gets a little tiresome in things like expert roulette, though. By this point players really should know better.

As for the comfort zone point, I really don't think there is any "one size fits all" good way to deal with that. Many people have been pushed out of various roles (usually healer) due to other people feeling their comfort zones should be pushed. I believe that for some people, their comfort zone exists where it does for a good reason and it ought not to be pushed.


That's a really bad false equivalence. Tanks who didn't know how to hold hate pre-SB2 (or simply felt like they couldn't be bothered, because ohmagawd mah deeps or whatever) were everywhere, whereas I can count the number of Riposte-spamming RDMs I've run into in the DF on one finger.

If people feel their comfort zone does not match with the group then they are free to try and speak up regarding if, try to remove the element, or leave. It is not a one size fits all approach but communication is key. Also it is not a false equivalence, I have ran into far more melee only rdm then I have tanks that straight disregarded aggro for the sake of damage. It may not be the case for you, and I do not deny you ran into tanks like that. I personally did not run into them very often. I ran into more tank stance only tanks personally which lead me to pick up the tanking role myself.

Can only speak for myself but pre 50 content and even some 50 content really did not prepare me for mass pulling while maintaining aggro and uptime on damage. Going from ARR stuff to HW content was a large jump for me personally in terms of damage out put from both a healing and tanking perspective. So during that learning curve I have let people die and got shit for it, but I took it in stride and just learned from mistakes and accepted the bashing. It was a fun learning experience at the very least for me, and when I finally got the hang of it and ended a run with top damage while still preforming my role it felt nice. Tanking now for me feels somewhat hallow, though I am glad others enjoy it. Just as ast which use to be my favorite healer feels shallow to me.



Idk man just seems like you have this personal grudge against dps centric meta. Which is fine, everyone is free to feel how they want. Just from view it seems like you simply hate playing with bad players, and less to do with the play style itself.

[Melichoir]

That's just it though; they don't get punished severely. Their party members do. (Then the tank usually has the gall to say something like "use quelling next time")

And as I've pointed out above, if things went back to pre-SB2 and I was expected to just kick every tank I ran into like this, I wouldn't even be able to because of the vote dismiss cooldown. That's how commonplace this was. And even then, so what if they're kicked? They will have no problem getting another group, because even though they're playing "DPS" they still have that coveted blue icon.

The solution would be a mix of two things. 1, it would require hte player base to be more proactive, and 2, it would require a change to the vote kick system.

The first thing is yeah, you need people to start kicking players from party if theyre failing to do their job. Low damage, Bad tanking, terrible healing, dont matter. People need to start learning to kick people from dungeons and just do it.

The second thing though is a change to the system. You need 3 changes to fix the system.

The first is when a vote kick is initiated, whomever initiates it must pick from a list of reasons why beyond the current ones. The reasoning may change based on the role being voted on. For example - Vote Kick tank would have reasons such as "Not Holding Threat", "Insufficient Equipment", "Not avoiding Damage Mechanics", etc, along with a small "write down" section if you want to add notes. If the vote is passed, players is removed from the dungeon. Upon loading back to wherever they were, a Confirmation window will pop up telling the player why they were kicked along with any notes left by players. They have to confirm to close the window and do things.

Keep in mind if you write disparaging comments in the notes, you can be reported for harassment. Doesnt matter how troll-y the tank is, if you write garbage and they report, thats on you.

The second thing is that said kicked player can requeue again if they want. There will be no penalty. HOwever, if theyre kicked a subsequent time by the new group, they will be put on a 30 minute re queue CD. There is little likely hood that a player will get kicked twice in a row for the same reason and it not be their fault in some capacity.

The last thing is change how the vote kick CD works. You wont be able to kick a player for a Role issue at least for 10 minutes or until a check point is reached (death first boss, as an example). Once you reach that, you can keep kicking people all you want. For non role issues, like griefing or what not, you can vote dismiss instantly, but everyone in party will incur a 15 minute CD on the next kick, regardless of reason. A backend change they would also need to implement for Role Kicking is that every time you kick someone for that reason, you get shoved further down the queue for a replacement. Again, to discourage system abuse. You do it enough itll take you forever to get a new tank. So dont be super picky.

Atleast with a system like this, you can get rid of griefers immediately, but you run some risks with doing so (as to discourage abuse of this system). The likelihood your gonna get two griefers in a row is low, even in this game. With the role kick reasoning, you can get rid of tanks or healers or whatever and they will be notified as to why they were removed. If they get kicked a second time for the very same role reasons, they have to wait out the CD and fix their problems (hopefully).

Its gonna require people be willing to kick players, but also require the player base to be semi responsible and actually help educate players or try to. If someone doesnt want to be receptive, then sucks for them. They get kicked.

[TyrTry]

Its gonna require people be willing to kick players, but also require the player base to be semi responsible and actually help educate players or try to. If someone doesnt want to be receptive, then sucks for them. They get kicked.

I'm not sure what kind of punishments people are looking for exactly.

Bad tanks are going to be bad tanks. And what I mean by "bad" tanks is not learning tanks, but those who actively REFUSE to take any advice, heed to pleas they are given from their teammates , or downright CHOOSE to remain ignorant to the tooltips for their own selfish reasons.
The system we have in place is currently enough to deal with these "bad" tanks. Adding more time as punishment just means they got to wait longer to get back and do it all over again. Adding a reason to why would simply be ignored; the same reasoning applies to longer wait times. They will just do it again.

I can see adding all this would be less beneficial to the players who are actively trying to learn vs the players who just don't give a flying fart.


And I hope you understand that I'm not trying to berate or come off as antagonistic. Even with multiple increases in penalty time or new rules be given to vote kicking, it wouldn't be long before a group of players abuses it and before you know it, people come begging for another change in the system.

[Ramura_Sono]

"Aggro management"?

You mean letting the healers and DPS die, and then yell at them for not using their tools (even when they do) because you can't be bothered to do an extra aggro combo, right? That aggro management?

You can have aggro management back when it is solely a tank responsibility, and the optimal play for tank DPS becomes walking the line of losing aggro. Anything else is just gonna result in the same mess we had in SB, with people not geared/skilled enough blaming everyone but themselves. No thanks. Tanks can be diva enough as it is without the additional mess of "MUH DPS".

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

"Aggro management"?

You mean letting the healers and DPS die, and then yell at them for not using their tools (even when they do) because you can't be bothered to do an extra aggro combo, right? That aggro management?

You can have aggro management back when it is solely a tank responsibility, and the optimal play for tank DPS becomes walking the line of losing aggro. Anything else is just gonna result in the same mess we had in SB, with people not geared/skilled enough blaming everyone but themselves. No thanks. Tanks can be diva enough as it is without the additional mess of "MUH DPS".

I think this Solidifies why the current system is better

[Awha]

"Aggro management"?

You mean letting the healers and DPS die, and then yell at them for not using their tools (even when they do) because you can't be bothered to do an extra aggro combo, right? That aggro management?

You can have aggro management back when it is solely a tank responsibility, and the optimal play for tank DPS becomes walking the line of losing aggro. Anything else is just gonna result in the same mess we had in SB, with people not geared/skilled enough blaming everyone but themselves. No thanks. Tanks can be diva enough as it is without the additional mess of "MUH DPS".

Those were bad players though. Run into a bad player that refuses to take responsibility for their action kick them or leave. Though as a dps I also do miss aggro management it felt like I contributed to the party outside my dps. Granted I play "selfish dps" so that might just me wanting a little extra in terms of party contributions.

[Fynlar]

"Aggro management"?

You mean letting the healers and DPS die, and then yell at them for not using their tools (even when they do) because you can't be bothered to do an extra aggro combo, right? That aggro management?

You can have aggro management back when it is solely a tank responsibility, and the optimal play for tank DPS becomes walking the line of losing aggro. Anything else is just gonna result in the same mess we had in SB, with people not geared/skilled enough blaming everyone but themselves. No thanks. Tanks can be diva enough as it is without the additional mess of "MUH DPS".

I know your profile says miner, but I swear if you could share my pain any better than that it would start saying dark knight instead.

[LaylaTsarra]

"Aggro management"?

You mean letting the healers and DPS die, and then yell at them for not using their tools (even when they do) because you can't be bothered to do an extra aggro combo, right? That aggro management?

You can have aggro management back when it is solely a tank responsibility, and the optimal play for tank DPS becomes walking the line of losing aggro. Anything else is just gonna result in the same mess we had in SB, with people not geared/skilled enough blaming everyone but themselves. No thanks. Tanks can be diva enough as it is without the additional mess of "MUH DPS".

Shame I can only give this one like.

[Melichoir]

"Aggro management"?

You mean letting the healers and DPS die, and then yell at them for not using their tools (even when they do) because you can't be bothered to do an extra aggro combo, right? That aggro management?

You can have aggro management back when it is solely a tank responsibility, and the optimal play for tank DPS becomes walking the line of losing aggro. Anything else is just gonna result in the same mess we had in SB, with people not geared/skilled enough blaming everyone but themselves. No thanks. Tanks can be diva enough as it is without the additional mess of "MUH DPS".

I can accomplish letting healers and DPS die by angling hte boss damage skills into the dps and yelling at them to adjust.

I can do the same thing by simply not using AoEs in pack pulls beyond the first and then saying "Why are you getting aggro attacking the other targets."

And btw, there are cases I have seen where you have some dumb DPS decide to blow their CDs and max single target damage a mob in a large pull, grab aggro, get killed, and blame me or the healer for their death when everyone else is doing AoE. Even with the current changes to tank stance, you can still lose aggro to a DPS if theyre going ham single target vs your AoE spam.

Nah, giving aggro dumps to the DPS and Healers would be good, not bad. It gives options to them for raid/savage environments to come up with solutions for aggro IF you were to alter how threat works. In regular content, modifying tank stance in a way like I suggested would resolve the issue pretty thoroughly. It's a number's tweaking game the devs would have to play - Done right you wont have to use your aggro dump in regular dungeon play with a tank who manages their tank stance decently. That and itd be infinitely more fun to play as a tank.

But realistically, my cynicism leads me to believe that itll be the opposite - tank role complexity will be reduced even further cause "tanking to hard, make it easier". Might as well simplify CD usage, get rid of tank stance by making it passive and giving all abilities just absurd amounts of threat, and make voke on a short CD that gives you a sizeable threat boost over the top threat target so you can tank swap if need be.

[RitsukoSonoda]

At this point they've been essentially dumbing the game down to appease that noisy minority of people that refuse to get good and expect everyone else to just cover for them.

IMO I'd say first step is to stop nerfing things just because a small amount of the playerbase don't want to put any effort into getting better as a player and instead spend even more energy blowing up the forum with a new thread full of their tears every day. Then start bringing back mechanics and aspects you removed to appease those people so that the game in general involves a little more conscious thought and less brain on autopilot relying on muscle memory.