Tanking in FF14 question

[Nedkel]

Same reason I roll my eyes at healers who think they need a 4-5 button combo with conditionals for DPS, ontop of all of their healing duties. Yeah, okay, the savage players asking for that could perhaps handle that... but your average player, couldn't.

Im not savage raider and even i think healers gameplay is haunted with chronic boredom.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Im not savage raider and even i think healers gameplay is haunted with chronic boredom.

I try to explain it like this to people;
You have an oGCD ability that heals 100 potency. 4min cooldown.
Then another, thats 100 potency, 4min cooldown.
then a 3rd, 100p, 4min cd.
then finally a 4th. again, 100p, 4m cd.
this LOOKS complex, but its really not, once you're used to it. Essentially this can be changed to one button, with a 1min CD, and 100 potency.
the only difference between them, is that the prior lets u burst it all in one go, and the 2nd allows for new abilities, so as not to have ability bloat.
while the prior isnt always wrong, it shouldnt ever be done just to make more filler moves. moves should have depth. i also dont mind having more options. but some options that are TOO situational, should have secondary effects, which can at least be useful a bit more often. (but not inherently tied to DPS. otherwise skills like gap closers, ppl will just use to keep DPS up)

an example: 3.0 PLD. Rage of halone combo was useless after the initial threat. and AoE became useless in 'most' of savage content.
So why not tie threat and aoe together, to minimize buttons? PLD would use flash for threat, not DPS. PLD would use RoH for threat, not DPS. so if you make a weak AoE, with high threat, on par with RoH, it can be used in the same way RoH is used on single target. This reduced the number of buttons by one already.
lastly, remove Shirk, and we go back to needing threat options after a voke again. (With the added bonus threat from voke, theres no reason to keep shirk really.)
this is of course an example of how you can turn "lesser" used abilities into a abilities used a bit more often. (They technically lower DPS, rather than raise it, so they are supportive instead. Because of this DPS loss, they better darn well be worth the trade off, which in the case of making sure enemies hit the tank, and not kill a DPS, its "technically" a DPS increase, even if personal DPS is lowered)

Back to the point... I agree, Healers arent complex. Adding some depth doesnt equate complexity. There's plenty added to them already for "complexity" thats just pointless filler. They need more depth, and interesting mechanics. Also, just leave WHm as the "basic" healer. If i feel like being lazy, I play WHM, when I wanted to try harder, I used to play AST or SCH. (now they just feel mostly the same. only a tiny bit of difference)

[Noira]

Big pulls that's all you need to know to sum it up why everyone hates healing or tanking.

Outside big pulls and certain boss mechanics healers and tanking have nothing to do.

I'm a BLM Main and even I get bored of just big pulls because that's the only exciting thing to do and it puts me on edge (Can I DPS this big pull before the healer runs out of mana and the tank dies ?).

Even boss mechanics are predictable.

Maybe I should raid <.<.

[Maeka]

I feel that a lot of people just have short attention spans, and they require constant stimulation to be enjoying something, to be honest.

I really don't think an MMO, any MMO, is going to be their cup-of-tea, really. At least not one that uses an ability hotkey system like FFXIV or WoW or others like it do.

They keep yammering about jobs being "too simple" and they keep yammering about "the old days" but they are forgetting that it wasn't really all that more complex or interesting back then, really. Was it really more interesting to spam flash and dump fast blade and savage blade by tab-targeting through mobs? Are they really trying to say that was somehow more interesting?

Or the healers who complain about DPS being "too easy" ... I dunno about SCH and AST (I didn't get to them until late Stormblood) but I remember WHM being Stone, Aero, and Aero II (along with Cleric Stance which half of the time they got people killed with anyhow). Now we have Stone, Aero, and Misery. I mean, at least the lillies system has actual use now, unlike in Stormblood?

I'm just not really seeing how that's actually any less "interesting" and "complex" than it was before. I think the main crux of the problem is that people have rose-colored goggles from when they were more new to the game, and they've played it for hundreds of hours, and they've just simply put too much time in it and they look back on days where they had less playtime when they hadn't burned out so much and they mistake their lack of fun today as being because of the changes made to the game, rather than just simply the passage of time.

This is why Yoshi-P wants you to take breaks from FFXIV now and then. Clear a tier of content, play something else, come back rather than hack away at the time every single day, or week until new content comes out.

To be honest? I played WoW up to this past November. I can tell you that there's not much more complexity there either, it's just faster button presses, with lots of filler abilities that don't really seem interesting whatsoever. You want to talk about boring? I could name you some WoW jobs that aren't even half as complex as XIV's. But yet people talk like XIV is somehow "boring" or something and it kinda feels like they're pointing at WoW. The only thing WoW does better, is give you a bit more conditional abilities, but even then ... sometimes I feel like that's a bad thing because of how bad RNG can screw you and refuse to proc what you need to proc (kind of like how BLM can go 10+ fires in a row and not get a single firestarter and the next fight, he gets 3 in a row).

I think people should just take the rose-colored goggles off and try to calm down, and chill some. If you're getting THAT bored of the game that nothing will please you, why not just take a break like Yoshi-P asks, and come back when 5.3 comes out. It sounds like you just simply need new content, and a little time away.

To the OP, I'll again re-iterate something I said before in this and other threads: Low-Level is always boring. Do you remember what low-level was like during WoW? Where you had 2-3 abilities you used, and it was like this clear up until Lv30? 40? FFXIV is no different. I started a Druid last year, when I unlocked Zandalari Trolls and their dino druid forms. I was bored to tears because of the fact I only had like 3 attacks that I spammed over and over and over and over again. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake mangle mangle bite, dead.

*yawn*

In fact... that's the core of the gameplay even at Lv50-ish when I quit around November. I just had a bunch of other situational buttons I may or may not use once in a blue moon.

Maybe I should raid <.<.

FFXIV is one of the only games I would encourage common people to try raiding in. Normal Raids are, at least IMO, reasonably fun but yet accessible to, I'd say, 30-50% of the playerbase.

If you're already raiding Normal but not Savage... well, you can try that. lol. It's far harder. There, you'll be glad you have time while doing your rotations to keep track of all the stuff going on that bosses do.

EDIT: Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but even at Lv120, doesn't WoW's Prot Paladin tanking look something like this:

1). Throw Shield when possible.
2). Use Hammer until 3+ Holy Power
3). Use the Shield Slam or self-heal
4). Repeat

to tank a group of mobs, basically? There's a couple filler buttons, but I remember this being basically the core of the class's "rotation". And/or if you chose a talent you might get a free shield slam or self-heal now and then.

[BarretOblivion]

I feel that a lot of people just have short attention spans, and they require constant stimulation to be enjoying something, to be honest.

They keep yammering about jobs being "too simple" and they keep yammering about "the old days" but they are forgetting that it wasn't really all that more complex or interesting back then, really. Was it really more interesting to spam flash and dump fast blade and savage blade by tab-targeting through mobs? Are they really trying to say that was somehow more interesting?


to tank a group of mobs, basically? There's a couple filler buttons, but I remember this being basically the core of the class's "rotation". And/or if you chose a talent you might get a free shield slam or self-heal now and then.

Say that to DRK, I dare you. There was times playing tanks to where you had to be aware and if you were aware you could be risky and be rewarded for it. That being said, all tanks had expectations that your class was going to take a step forward in progression from lvl 70-80 from a new expansion, its an expectation that you pay for. Tanks did not. They streamlined one aspect but then took stuff away from us, then did not do thier jobs for tanks. I want you to argue WAR, how do you argue WAR getting only 1 new skill at 70+ and passives that do nothing for the job at all?
Let me be more frank, why did SE think it was wise to simply just use the excuse to give all tanks what they were missing from other tanks as thier "LvL 80 progression" this expansion?
It was to make them balanced, same as healers, but when they did that they removed the entire job identity of every tank and every healer by doing so. They all play the same, dry BS 1-2-3 dump resource and wait for either a DPS cooldown increase or an IR spam button with very few OGCDs to even play with. How is that fun?
I took a break personally after last tier for almost 2 months... I came back and I still hated tanking. So taking a break doesn't help when relying on new content when doing said content sucks.

[MerlinCross]

I think people should just take the rose-colored goggles off and try to calm down, and chill some. If you're getting THAT bored of the game that nothing will please you, why not just take a break like Yoshi-P asks, and come back when 5.3 comes out. It sounds like you just simply need new content, and a little time away.

But I still have fun with Dragoon. I still have fun with SAM.

So why is it, that I gave up on Healing, and don't find Tanking to be at all enjoyable short of the extra rewards? I cannot tell the difference with these goggles on my head so enlighten me Mr Chill.

Rose Tinted Goggles vs Thick Glasses that prevent you from seeing issues in the game; I get the feeling Maeka would accept a 3 button tank.

[Macleod]

...but does it get more fun in the later level?

Only you can decide if it's fun or not, don't rely on others to tell you whether something is fun. In a previous MMO, for quite a long time, I played what was considered the "worst" class/spec combo in the game, that everyone said "don't play it"...But I did anyway, because I thought it was fun, and it worked just fine and I could play it well.

[Maeka]

But I still have fun with Dragoon. I still have fun with SAM.

So why is it, that I gave up on Healing, and don't find Tanking to be at all enjoyable short of the extra rewards? I cannot tell the difference with these goggles on my head so enlighten me Mr Chill.

Rose Tinted Goggles vs Thick Glasses that prevent you from seeing issues in the game; I get the feeling Maeka would accept a 3 button tank.

Maybe you were just never meant to be a tank or a healer to begin with?

I mean, if you want complex DPS rotations and stuff, then........play a DPS.

If we made more complex rotations, like DRG into a tank or healer, then more than half the playerbase wouldn't be able to handle it + actual tanking and healing duties combined. Do you seriously want to see your wait times shoot up to 45min+ as DPS?

As for whether or not I'd be happy with a "3 button tank", well.... that's a bit of an exaggeration because there's way more than 3 buttons. Maybe they could add a little more complexity, but I'm fine with the way they are today. And hey, if it's too boring for you, you can play SAM and DRG. It's not like you're forced to Q as tank or heals.

[Gramlite]

o the OP, I'll again re-iterate something I said before in this and other threads: Low-Level is always boring. Do you remember what low-level was like during WoW? Where you had 2-3 abilities you used, and it was like this clear up until Lv30? 40? FFXIV is no different. I started a Druid last year, when I unlocked Zandalari Trolls and their dino druid forms. I was bored to tears because of the fact I only had like 3 attacks that I spammed over and over and over and over again. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake mangle mangle bite, dead.

*yawn*

Im still playing wow classic on the off and on. i have a 60 war and 60 paladin Low level is somewhat bland i agree but it wasnt as bland as this in the low level tho. for example, Warrior has a rage system that you can't really spam and it is not a guaranteed hold too, if your initial Sunder armor is blocked dodge or parry your dps has to slow down on the initial DPS until the tank can get a few sunders in. Also warrior didnt have an aoe threat generating as good as the 1 here in FF14. Where as here in FF14 all i do is iron will + spam aoe and that will hold no problem. Now i wasnt trying to do a FF14 vs Wow, i was trying to see if it gets more engaging in the end game. So far im in hakkune manor and its beginning to pick up on the fun factor, lots of mobs need interruption, lots of mob need stuns. Hope it keeps it this way

[Maeka]

I was never a fan of DPS having to slow down because of poorly balanced aggro management systems.

That just doesn't seem like good game design to me, to be honest. DPS jobs should be about being the best at your game to put out the best DPS you can... except..... you can't.

It's like buying a Ferrari to drive it on roads that have a speed limit of 35MPH. What the frick is the point in that, really?

And yeah, not trying to do a WoW vs FFXIV either, but WoW is relevant to the discussion since it's the game you came from. So no problem on that!

Different dungeons have different degrees of how many mobs can and should be stunned, whether or not you have a WHM in the group (they get AoE stun that they will spam and it makes mobs immune to stun) and IMO, they needed to add more interruptable attacks.

What will pick up, is the sheer tools you get as a Paladin to help your teammates. You are almost to the point you get Cover which lets you take damage for someone else near you (target them, use Cover, make sure to stay close to them) if you know someone is about to take a mechanic to the face and die. Saving someone's life with Cover feels great. I love it.

Passage of Arms, which comes way later, is a reverse cone of damage reduction; anybody standing behind you while you use it (you have to stand still and not use any abilities or it wears off immediately) takes less damage from anything in front of you (usually used when a boss does a big AoE that hits the whole group, or a stack mechanic).

Clemency, I know a lot of people go 'meh' at Clemency but nothing feels better than to dump a Clemency on a healer who's about to die before the healer can even heal themselves, lol.

You likely have Reprisal (I forget what level that is)... a lot of people spam Reprisal anytime it's not on cooldown. IMO, I think this is the wrong way to use it. I like to save Reprisal for certain times. You definitely want to use it at the beginning of large trash pulls where it can have the most effect, and during bosses, you either use it on Tankbuster attacks, or large AoEs when you know one is coming. It's that "active mitigation" that WoW Devs were talking about a couple expansions ago and how they wanted to do that.

Turns out FFXIV PLDs do pretty well at that, too!

Also on that note, Sheltron. I love Sheltron, it lets me choose when I want to guarantee a -20% damage for 6 seconds (obviously for Tankbusters and the like).

It does get more fun later as you unlock more tools. And also the boss fights are going to get more complex as you get further on, especially in the late 50s, they start adding more diverse mechanics, and bosses will start to mix mechanics, and do them simultaneously. You'll find a boss has like 2-3 mechanics that seem so simple... until halfway during the fight, the boss decides to do 2 of those mechanics simultaneously that trips people up the first couple times they do a boss.

EDIT: Also Keeper of the Lake (Lv50 dungeon). I'm kinda of curious as to what you'll think of the last boss in there after you've done it (trying to avoid spoilers). There's quite a lot of dancing to avoid AoEs because they're just everywhere in that fight, tends to trip newbies up. Also the instant death if you miss the shield generator or mis-time it.