Tanking in FF14 question

[NanaWiloh]

Im sorry to say this but... you are just bad then. Everyone got used to doing it and timing thier hate drops when they are needed (example during burst heals or dps). You never laxed your job in SB, if you did, something was wrong. Either you didn't Lucid, or tanks weren't shirking each other.

It was in 4 mans where it happend, never happened in raids cause of two tanks and two healers. Tanks that want the enmity managment back can have it the day SE locks you into Defensive stance while in a 4 man. You can stance dance in Raids where two tanks are present so the chance that at least one of the two is paying attention to aggro. The old system worked fine in a raid enviroment but was a nightmare in 4 mans.

This is How I would bring it back.

1. Make defensive stances increase the enmity created by enmity generating abilities only.

2. Give tanks 1 more pure enmity generator (Enmity will need to be lowered to ensure both get used.)

3. Make enmity generators OGCD abilities.

4. Remove Enmity generation from tank dps abilities.

Result tanks will have to rotate their pure enmity generators into their dps rotation. Hard part would be balancing so you dont have to hit the generators every time you do your dps rotation. The idea here simple put dps and healers on a tanks skirt tails for Enmity with the tanks having to use enmity generators more often then they do now.

[ReiMakoto]

It was in 4 mans where it happend, never happened in raids cause of two tanks and two healers. Tanks that want the enmity managment back can have it the day SE locks you into Defensive stance while in a 4 man. You can stance dance in Raids where two tanks are present so the chance that at least one of the two is paying attention to aggro. The old system worked fine in a raid enviroment but was a nightmare in 4 mans.

This is How I would bring it back.

1. Make defensive stances increase the enmity created by enmity generating abilities only.

2. Give tanks 1 more pure enmity generator (Enmity will need to be lowered to ensure both get used.)

3. Make enmity generators OGCD abilities.

4. Remove Enmity generation from tank dps abilities.

Result tanks will have to rotate their pure enmity generators into their dps rotation. Hard part would be balancing so you dont have to hit the generators every time you do your dps rotation. The idea here simple put dps and healers on a tanks skirt tails for Enmity with the tanks having to use enmity generators more often then they do now.

If you were losing aggro when stance dancing in 4 man content you were just bad, even in trash pulls my grit was on for maybe 1 unleash then it was dps time and nothing lost aggro. Dungeon bosses were so short 1 aggro combo was enough to hold the boss till it died, or 2 if you had a good dps that for some reason didnt press their free aggro buttons.

Also you emnity idea just sounds incredibly arbitrary, I dont understand whats fun about it.

[Mithia]

Yes, tanking is very simple for the experienced player.

A good tank, however, doesn't just keep agro, he also mitigates the incoming damage by his various tools.

I see plenty of tanks run a dungeon, pull all packs till the boss, and then proceed by asking the healer why he died when he goes splat. Then, of course, you didn't see a single rampart, sentinel, sheltron on his buffs nor a debuff like reprisal or the slow effect from Arm's Length on the mobs.

[Maeka]

Luckily PLD has more actions that require more effort than most of the tanks. with WAR and DRK semi in the middle, since they have to aim 2 of their AoEs, and GNB just stands there mashing the same combo at max level.

Um......say what?

GNB "mashing the same combo at max level"?

Have you played GNB?

You have a 3-button combo to build a charge. Once you build a charge, you get a six button combo that's on a short (IIRC, 30 second?) cooldown and a single-button spender of that charge if it's on cooldown.

No other class in the game has a 6 button combo unless you want to count Mudras and even that isn't 6-button, it's only 4. DRG also has a 5-button combo but nobody else gets a 6. And not only is it a 6 button combo, but it's also beside the standard 3 button combo everybody else has.

@Merlincross:

Depends on the job. To be honest, the 3-button combo and the 2-button AoE combo is mostly the meat of what tanks do in dungeons. You get the 3-button combo around Lv28-30 from what I could see, and .. well, you have to stick with a 1-button AoE until Stormblood usually. But I can live with that, though for some weird reason, DRK has to wait way longer than anybody else to get their 2nd AoE ability. But I would suppose it's because they have the AoE MP-Spender.

So, most tanks start to feel OK around the Lv30-ish. About the time you get into Haukke or Qarn, and certainly by Stone Vigil, your job starts to feel more complete, just missing some extra stuff they add on later, like Holy Circle, Req, Clemency, etc. But you don't really need those, as you don't really take that much damage quite yet. Then once you get into each expansion's dungeons, the added complexity to the battles starts kicking in, and you start to get these abilities one by one, it's a gradual build-up of fun.

I will agree that none of the jobs except DNC feel good in Sastasha, Tam-Tara, or Copperbell despite how hilarious it is to speedrun Tam-Tara in 6-8 minutes with 2 DNC and a GNB lol.

EDIT: I forgot about Raiden Thrust. Sorry. DRG does get a 6. But that's at Lv80. Also, RDM gets a 5.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Um......say what?

I was referring to tank AoE, which is what the Op was originally bringing up, and my comment on the other persons "PLDs flash only" statement.
Obviously not GNBs single target. GNBs GCD AoE is a 2 step, with a procced 3rd step, that can be done at any point in the 2 step. This is effectively a 3 step combo. (The only exception is when using both stacks for burst phases. Followed by going back to 1>2>3)

[BarretOblivion]

Um......say what?

GNB "mashing the same combo at max level"?

Have you played GNB?

You have a 3-button combo to build a charge. Once you build a charge, you get a six button combo that's on a short (IIRC, 30 second?) cooldown and a single-button spender of that charge if it's on cooldown.

No other class in the game has a 6 button combo unless you want to count Mudras and even that isn't 6-button, it's only 4. DRG also has a 5-button combo but nobody else gets a 6. And not only is it a 6 button combo, but it's also beside the standard 3 button combo everybody else has.

@Merlincross:

Depends on the job. To be honest, the 3-button combo and the 2-button AoE combo is mostly the meat of what tanks do in dungeons. You get the 3-button combo around Lv28-30 from what I could see, and .. well, you have to stick with a 1-button AoE until Stormblood usually. But I can live with that, though for some weird reason, DRK has to wait way longer than anybody else to get their 2nd AoE ability. But I would suppose it's because they have the AoE MP-Spender.

So, most tanks start to feel OK around the Lv30-ish. About the time you get into Haukke or Qarn, and certainly by Stone Vigil, your job starts to feel more complete, just missing some extra stuff they add on later, like Holy Circle, Req, Clemency, etc. But you don't really need those, as you don't really take that much damage quite yet. Then once you get into each expansion's dungeons, the added complexity to the battles starts kicking in, and you start to get these abilities one by one, it's a gradual build-up of fun.

I will agree that none of the jobs except DNC feel good in Sastasha, Tam-Tara, or Copperbell despite how hilarious it is to speedrun Tam-Tara in 6-8 minutes with 2 DNC and a GNB lol.

EDIT: I forgot about Raiden Thrust. Sorry. DRG does get a 6. But that's at Lv80. Also, RDM gets a 5.

As a top 5% GNB, he is correct. You get access to that other combo every 30 secs but you are using the same combo the entire fight, it just resets every minute you redo your opener again... and again... and again.... and again.

[MerlinCross]

@Merlincross:

Depends on the job. To be honest, the 3-button combo and the 2-button AoE combo is mostly the meat of what tanks do in dungeons. You get the 3-button combo around Lv28-30 from what I could see, and .. well, you have to stick with a 1-button AoE until Stormblood usually. But I can live with that, though for some weird reason, DRK has to wait way longer than anybody else to get their 2nd AoE ability. But I would suppose it's because they have the AoE MP-Spender.

So, most tanks start to feel OK around the Lv30-ish. About the time you get into Haukke or Qarn, and certainly by Stone Vigil, your job starts to feel more complete, just missing some extra stuff they add on later, like Holy Circle, Req, Clemency, etc. But you don't really need those, as you don't really take that much damage quite yet. Then once you get into each expansion's dungeons, the added complexity to the battles starts kicking in, and you start to get these abilities one by one, it's a gradual build-up of fun.

I will agree that none of the jobs except DNC feel good in Sastasha, Tam-Tara, or Copperbell despite how hilarious it is to speedrun Tam-Tara in 6-8 minutes with 2 DNC and a GNB lol.

See I put it higher than that. Sure, our kit might be more 'complete' by Stone Vigil but there's still little to actually use the FULL MIGHT of the Kit on. This isn't just a tank issue either, DPS and Healers also have the same issue.

Put a different way, there's nothing till Keeper of the Lake that actually requires much thought or attention, and after that I would say it takes about halfway into Heavensward to get interesting again with Arey.

A Job might be more complete and have more things to do but nothing expects you to make full use of all your resources till a good ways in. This really makes something like Tanks unfun unless things are going south or people are doing dungeons new/blind but they're not the only Role that has an issue with this. Granted this is the fact of MMOs, old content is boring and just 'bleh' to run but I don't think I could play this game as a new player without someone to pull me in. I think I'd get bored if I was told "It gets better later".

These days I have no idea waht that later is and can barely bring myself to level my old jobs. This is a seperate issue but I think strikes a cord with OP's question/topic. Leveling isn't terribly interesting outside of a couple points so they better get used to it now.

[ArianeEwah]

You have a 3-button combo to build a charge. Once you build a charge, you get a six button combo that's on a short (IIRC, 30 second?) cooldown and a single-button spender of that charge if it's on cooldown.

No other class in the game has a 6 button combo unless you want to count Mudras and even that isn't 6-button, it's only 4. DRG also has a 5-button combo but nobody else gets a 6. And not only is it a 6 button combo, but it's also beside the standard 3 button combo everybody else has.

Sorry, I just have to comment on this. Gnashing Fang combo is not 6 buttons long! It's 6 actions, 3 of them merged into 1 button. With this the Gnashing Fang comob is actually 4 buttons. That is the same amount of buttons as NIN mudra, but the whole mudra mechanic has 12 actions (Ten, Chi, Jin, and all 9 mudras, not including the "Ten-Chi-Jin" ability).
And technically, Gnashing fang is still a 3-skill combo with 1 oGCD button, while mudra is not even a "combo" to begin with. Off-topic, but I just had to clear things up.

[Maeka]

Sorry, I just have to comment on this. Gnashing Fang combo is not 6 buttons long! It's 6 actions, 3 of them merged into 1 button. With this the Gnashing Fang comob is actually 4 buttons. That is the same amount of buttons as NIN mudra, but the whole mudra mechanic has 12 actions (Ten, Chi, Jin, and all 9 mudras, not including the "Ten-Chi-Jin" ability).
And technically, Gnashing fang is still a 3-skill combo with 1 oGCD button, while mudra is not even a "combo" to begin with. Off-topic, but I just had to clear things up.

Seriously? You're going to argue on semantics?

There's not much difference between pressing 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 1-2-3-2-4-2. You're still pressing 6 button presses in a very specific sequence that cannot be broken up by anything other than oGCDs, you know, just like a normal combo.

Your argument on the Ninjutsu/Mudra mechanic is even more laughable.

It's 2-4 button presses, but you get different effects out of it depending on what order you hit the buttons in, but no matter how you roll the dice, it's still 2-4 button presses, therefore it might as well be a 2-4 button combo. Just because it isn't labelled a "combo" like other combos in the game doesn't mean it's not essentially the same thing as a combo. It's still 2-4 button presses you must hit in the proper order to achieve the desired effect.

Though I will admit I forgot about TCJ.

[ArianeEwah]

Seriously? You're going to argue on semantics?

I just pointed out you didn't differentiate between actions and actual buttons correctly?!

You mention mudras, and say they are 4 buttons that change into different actions, yet you count Gnashing Fang combo as 6 buttons?
You are doing a sequence of 4 different buttons that's 6 clicks long, but that doesn't mean you press 6 different buttons (on your hotbar).

You're actually saying it yourself during your own post, I don't get why are so upset?!