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  1. #1
    Player
    dinnertime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,300
    Character
    Aurelius Lyon
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Halivel View Post
    ...
    I think SE wouldn't really bother to care what the silent playerbase thinks if they don't speak. It calls back to that one infamous slide they had explaining their goals with developing ARR. They want and will respond to criticism that is seen. If you think something is fine, just share your opinion about that. Yes, It's undeniable that something like the forums is just a small part of the community but it's really strange that people are trying to dismiss that the opinions here on the forums aren't significant when it has been shown otherwise.

    Again, with the male Viera thing. The forums has a big thread about it, and SE responded about the situation in the live letter. Same with the AST changes. Same with anything they've responded to. You can't even say if the majority even does want it or not because there's no good way of telling. All we have going for is the feedback that is seen. That's simply how it is.

    This won't change until they actually do give out surveys to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by EaMett View Post
    Lilies being eaten by an attack skill would break the design of the system. It's actually a pretty well balanced and clever mechanic that is meant to mimic an instant cast DPS skill (where the dps portion is delayed). Aka as long as you can get your misery off, every lilly you eat is already a 250 potency dps skill (more if multitarget misery). If there are times where you don't need to heal you should still use an afflatus skill to weave your ogcds into even if it's overheal.
    In essence, afflatus heals are equivalent to the SCH ruin II with higher dps and an actual heal attached. It's so much better than ruin II that it comes with the major drawback of being a severely limited ressource.
    Sorry, but that's still not convincing me. I like to have a choice on what I can spend lilies on like how Scholar has a choice to where it can spend their Aetherflow on.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    EaMett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,430
    Character
    Ea Sin
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by dinnertime View Post
    Sorry, but that's still not convincing me. I like to have a choice on what I can spend lilies on like how Scholar has a choice to where it can spend their Aetherflow on.
    I'm not sure what part isn't convincing you. You already have a way of spending lilies towards dps... That's any afflatus skill, aka the very mechanic of how lilies work. They just defer their DPS onto misery. 4 GCDs for 900 potency. That's 225 per GCD.
    Might I add, 225 is not a random number, it's the exact amount it needs to be so that afflatus + ogcd weave = glare + ogcd clip. It's well balanced. You, objectively, shouldn't want to change that balance by introducing an afflatus dps skill.
    Maybe you just don't like that it's a little convoluted and would prefer a more straightforward "lily does dps via direct dps skill". That can be a legit concern. I feel like whm is simple enough that a bit of complexity on that front (if we can call it that) isn't much of a detriment. But that's just my opinion.

    SCH doesn't get any dps from it's heals, it needs many more weaving windows to get it's healing off, it's potencies are slightly lower. There are a lot of factors to keep in mind and that make this really hard to compare 1:1.

    I don't really want to go into math/design essay mode but the gist of it is that what WHM is lacking are dps ogcds. Not a dps skill linked to lilies. *cough*givefluidauraitspotencyback*cough*

    The argument for a dps lily skill could be made if it didn't contribute to the blood lily, but honestly, why bother.
    (2)
    Last edited by EaMett; 04-28-2020 at 06:50 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    ReiMakoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    1,197
    Character
    Rei Makato
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by EaMett View Post
    The argument for a dps lily skill could be made if it didn't contribute to the blood lily, but honestly, why bother.
    A skill like this could add some depth to whm dps, if it was a 225 potency single target attack which didnt charge blood lily, you could use it to prevent your lilys overcapping while waiting for downtime to burn your healing lilies for a 900 potency gain.
    (3)
    Savage Completion Rate ~5%+ of active players. Community: "Ugh stop catering to savage"
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  4. #4
    Player
    EaMett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,430
    Character
    Ea Sin
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ReiMakoto View Post
    A skill like this could add some depth to whm dps, if it was a 225 potency single target attack which didnt charge blood lily, you could use it to prevent your lilys overcapping while waiting for downtime to burn your healing lilies for a 900 potency gain.
    The potency would probably have to be higher to make it worthwhile. At 225 you might as well solace your tank, you would get as much damage off and a heal to boot. If it's more than 225 potency then it would become the defacto weaving tool for optimization. It would also directly compete for priority with skills from other healers. So for instance, currently, in a whm/sch comp you want your whm to use their lilies before the sch uses their aetherflow stacks. That balance could be broken and if it is then sch will need to priority heal and they will fall behind even further in dps (they're already the lowest dps in the game).
    Not saying it's a bad thing, or can't be done. Just needs some forethought and is an added complexity compared to just giving whm an ogcd dps tool that they are quite frankly lacking anyways.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    ReiMakoto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
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    1,197
    Character
    Rei Makato
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by EaMett View Post
    The potency would probably have to be higher to make it worthwhile. At 225 you might as well solace your tank, you would get as much damage off and a heal to boot. If it's more than 225 potency then it would become the defacto weaving tool for optimization. It would also directly compete for priority with skills from other healers. So for instance, currently, in a whm/sch comp you want your whm to use their lilies before the sch uses their aetherflow stacks. That balance could be broken and if it is then sch will need to priority heal and they will fall behind even further in dps (they're already the lowest dps in the game).
    Not saying it's a bad thing, or can't be done. Just needs some forethought and is an added complexity compared to just giving whm an ogcd dps tool that they are quite frankly lacking anyways.
    Well no. Re read what I said. If it was 225 sure you could solace the tank and it would be damage neutral. Or you can use this new tool (provided healing isn't needed) to prevent overcap save your healing lilies for when the boss isn't targetable to charge a blood lily. Or another scenario, say you've already charged a blood lily, and you're saving it for a raidbuff window (i.e. trick attack) or an add phase, but you need a weave/movement tool, it gets its use there as well without overcapping your blood lily. A 225 potency tool would have its own niche which adds more depth to approaching combat without being very strong.
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  6. #6
    Player
    EaMett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    1,430
    Character
    Ea Sin
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ReiMakoto View Post
    Well no. Re read what I said. If it was 225 sure you could solace the tank and it would be damage neutral. Or you can use this new tool (provided healing isn't needed) to prevent overcap save your healing lilies for when the boss isn't targetable to charge a blood lily. Or another scenario, say you've already charged a blood lily, and you're saving it for a raidbuff window (i.e. trick attack) or an add phase, but you need a weave/movement tool, it gets its use there as well without overcapping your blood lily. A 225 potency tool would have its own niche which adds more depth to approaching combat without being very strong.
    I hear you. I still think that's much too limited a use.
    There are only a handful of cases where this would be relevant:
    1) You're at the end of the fight and know you won't get another misery but still want to make use of your lilies. Typically here your co-healer will already pick up the healing from you because it's more efficient. So you wouldn't use this 225 potency attack instead of glare anyways. So it limits it even more to being a movement/weaving tool for the last 80s seconds or so (at most) of an encounter.
    2) You're holding a blood lily and need a movement tool. Very situational but indeed a legit, efficient use for this. There are other ways of accomplishing this as well, going back to my previous comment this is one of the many ways a dps ogcd could be used. Paired with a dia refresh for instance.
    3) Lastly and this is a real stretch but I want to include it just for the sake of being somewhat thorough. You've been holding a blood lily for 2mn and need a way not to overcap. Needless to say this is all around poor play but, again, lets just throw it in.

    At 225 potency it would be an extremely situational tool, really only relegated to the last minute or so of a fight and some fringe movement issues around buff windows (that could be resolved in other ways). It also comes with the potential downside of people misunderstanding it's use and treating it like a dps alternative. At higher potency you risk running into the issues highlighted in my previous post. Those issues can be ironed out, especially with a total healer rework (aka a new expansion release) so I wouldn't be surprised to see this become an option in the future if SE are willing to offer a bit more healer diversity.
    I just think it wouldn't make much sense to add it in the current state of affairs when some other options would be way more streamlined, like adding potency back to fluid aura for instance, which would also have the effect of making the WHM gameplay flow a little better.
    (0)
    Last edited by EaMett; 04-29-2020 at 03:53 AM.