6.0 Bard complete rework please

[Shurrikhan]

The Bard has always been musical in Final Fantasy, which is the series we're playing.

If we were going by the job's franchise history alone, then Bards would still be using daggers or, more often, bows, while swapping to Harps only against enemies vulnerable to the Harp's elemental vulnerability or where the Harps' %HP damage finally exceeds the flat damage of bows, while every Bard song would just be a watered-down AoE version of another job's spell (e.g. Bravery -> Sinewy Etude, Refresh -> Mana's Paeon, Regen -> Mighty March, Stop -> Romeo's Ballad, Confuse -> Alluring Air). If you want to go truly original, it's generally a Agility/Mind/Vit > Int > Str build, and therefore inflicts more damage with physical Agi-based weapons than Harp-based attacks, though its support functions can be decently strong.

Of all its iterations, Deuce is probably the most appealing to me gameplay-wise, but I see no reason why we can't have her level of flexibility without having to go quite so all-in-with-all-guns-blazing as Type-Zero or limiting Bard to just an instrument.

I would love to start into combat with a 3-5 second flute riff of sorts. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a clutch moment in which a wisely pessimistic bard starts playing Song of Time on his ocarina in order to adapt their LB3 into one which reverts all players' HP and buff states to the highest they've had in the last 20 seconds. But... I really don't want to be machine-gunning enemies down with musical notes, alternating between stabbing them with sharps and smashing them with flats. I'd much rather retain an Archer base and use Bard for strictly Bard-y effects rather than turning it into a full-time weapon -- or worse, making its support effects a byproduct of music-blasting damage rotations rather than any deliberate supportive choices.

[ty_taurus]

If we were going by the job's franchise history alone, then Bards would still be using daggers or, more often, bows, while swapping to Harps only against enemies vulnerable to the Harp's elemental vulnerability or where the Harps' %HP damage finally exceeds the flat damage of bows, while every Bard song would just be a watered-down AoE version of another job's spell (e.g. Bravery -> Sinewy Etude, Refresh -> Mana's Paeon, Regen -> Mighty March, Stop -> Romeo's Ballad, Confuse -> Alluring Air). If you want to go truly original, it's generally a Agility/Mind/Vit > Int > Str build, and therefore inflicts more damage with physical Agi-based weapons than Harp-based attacks, though its support functions can be decently strong.

Of all its iterations, Deuce is probably the most appealing to me gameplay-wise, but I see no reason why we can't have her level of flexibility without having to go quite so all-in-with-all-guns-blazing as Type-Zero or limiting Bard to just an instrument.

I would love to start into combat with a 3-5 second flute riff of sorts. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a clutch moment in which a wisely pessimistic bard starts playing Song of Time on his ocarina in order to adapt their LB3 into one which reverts all players' HP and buff states to the highest they've had in the last 20 seconds. But... I really don't want to be machine-gunning enemies down with musical notes, alternating between stabbing them with sharps and smashing them with flats. I'd much rather retain an Archer base and use Bard for strictly Bard-y effects rather than turning it into a full-time weapon -- or worse, making its support effects a byproduct of music-blasting damage rotations rather than any deliberate supportive choices.

I feel like you're taking the idea of using the traditional Final Fantasy Bard to influence FF14's Bard to an extreme. The point was never to copy and paste Edward into the game literally as he functions in FF4. That's not how FF14 works. Again, I can reference Red Mage. In order to capture the fantasy of playing a Red Mage, the team didn't throw in a Class that can equip Paladin weapons, Ninja weapons, Black Mage weapons, etc. and give them access to half the Black Mage's and White Mage's skillsets. They used the concept of the the Red Mage to create something that harkens back to and feels like the classic Red Mage while still working within the systems of FF14's design.

Applying that to Bard doesn't mean we need to drop the bow, pick up a Harp and a Flute, and use % attacks, raid-wide buffs and debuffs and call it a day. I never even suggested throwing away the archery elements because I know that there are many players who wanted this job explicitly because it begins as Archer and would never have touched it if it were a dedicated musician. It wouldn't be fair to yank the job away from them and demand it be a musician only. It would be nice if we could just have a full on Ranger AND a Bard be separate jobs, but that's not the world we live in.

Instead, I just think both halves of Bard's job-merging should have their spotlight at times in the kit, and the musical components of Bard have never had that spotlight. They were always there to fuel the bow actions. Having a segment of your rotation be that moment where you stop shooting arrows and start to riff on the Flute could be a fun thing, depending on how it works. An effect that changes their LB3 though is far too wild for anything FF14 will ever do, and it would probably not get used as defensive LB3s are only ever used when absolutely necessary, and Healer LB3 would just do that job significantly better anyway.

[Shurrikhan]

An effect that changes their LB3 though is far too wild for anything FF14 will ever do, and it would probably not get used as defensive LB3s are only ever used when absolutely necessary, and Healer LB3 would just do that job significantly better anyway.

It was merely an example, though I do honestly wish XIV had the guts to attempt something so "wild" as having multiple LB choices, beyond merely levels thereof.

[Tulzscha]

Bard should be able to go into combat in Performance mode like a rhythm game. Hit the right notes at the right times and good things just happen. Different effects for different songs.

Or if you really want to get crazy make more starting classes split into 2 jobs. Archer could pick up an instrument and go Bard or a pet and go Beastmaster. It's literal perfection, everyone's happy except the guy who said "never again" to the SMN/SCH situation but they should be happy anyway because they get the learning experience of why you should never say never. And learning is good. Stay in school kids.

I don't care how unrealistic my ideas are they're mine and I like them.

[Valvadrix]

They just need to make the songs actually good. The buffs aren't really that great.

I agree, but I don't think that's happening as long as Dancer exists and has the most support of the three ranged.

[Eliadil]

I mean, maybe Bard could have Palissade back. Instead of the whole physical ranged role. From what I recall the animation of Palissade fitted Bard really well, and this would drift him towards a more "active" support playstyle as well. Foe's Requiem was a nice idea, but I hated the cast time on the ability. Maybe make it an oGCD, that increases damage received to its target. In fact, you could rework it to be a trick attack clone. But then you would need to prevent Bard from stacking it with a Ninja, or we'd end up with a synergy meta all over again (maybe something like "this debuff can only be applied once every minute to a target"). I'd like to add also Refresh back into the game, but seeing how MP are basically a non-existent factor right now for most class, it wouldn't have that much uses apart from very niche scenarios.

Something that could also please the peoples wanting more "bard-related" stuff is a change to some animations. Stormbite as an example, could become an arrow that hits its target, to transforms into a tornado when the bard sings afterwards. Complicated animation, but would make more sense imo. I personnally love the 70 spell, as well as Iron Jaws and the LB3 who fits perfectly into this iteration of bard, an Hybrid between ranger and minstrel. Maybe add more things like this ?

I also can't blame SE for not wanting a Minstrel class into the game, seeing how effective the wandering minstrel is at inspiring things. I pity the boss who would get pulled into an Alexander Ultimate fight each time your party's Minstrel open its mouth.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, maybe Bard could have Palissade back. Instead of the whole physical ranged role. From what I recall the animation of Palissade fitted Bard really well, and this would drift him towards a more "active" support playstyle as well. Foe's Requiem was a nice idea, but I hated the cast time on the ability. Maybe make it an oGCD, that increases damage received to its target. In fact, you could rework it to be a trick attack clone. But then you would need to prevent Bard from stacking it with a Ninja, or we'd end up with a synergy meta all over again (maybe something like "this debuff can only be applied once every minute to a target"). I'd like to add also Refresh back into the game, but seeing how MP are basically a non-existent factor right now for most class, it wouldn't have that much uses apart from very niche scenarios.

Something that could also please the peoples wanting more "bard-related" stuff is a change to some animations. Stormbite as an example, could become an arrow that hits its target, to transforms into a tornado when the bard sings afterwards. Complicated animation, but would make more sense imo. I personnally love the 70 spell, as well as Iron Jaws and the LB3 who fits perfectly into this iteration of bard, an Hybrid between ranger and minstrel. Maybe add more things like this ?

I also can't blame SE for not wanting a Minstrel class into the game, seeing how effective the wandering minstrel is at inspiring things. I pity the boss who would get pulled into an Alexander Ultimate fight each time your party's Minstrel open its mouth.

If you cause buffs of any particular type to merely stack additively, rather than multiplicatively, you'd already reduce that excess/inadvertent power.

Consider, right now Greased Lightning IV (40%), Twin Snakes (10%), Brotherhood (5%), and Embolden (10%) together add up to a +65% damage modifier, but multiple up to a +78% Damage modifier (at 20% greater effect).

(This is a bit of an inflated example though, as Monk's 50% damage bonus is necessary just to get it up to normal damage, making the real difference nearer to 15.5% vs. 15%, which is only a 3.33% difference in effectiveness, down from 20%.)

Sum them instead, allowing only one of each type, such as Damage, Critical Hit, Direct Hit, Attack Speed, etc., to then apply multiplicative bonuses on buffs (since they cannot be summed with other types). If we cannot calculate damage increases simultaneously between the players and their target, then debuffs would have a similar one of each type limit of their own on multiplicative effects (Trick Attack would only stack additively with Foe Requiem, though both would -effectively- stack multiplicatively with Chain Stratagem, etc.). You'd faintly return compositional concerns, but you'd avoid any enforcement of a "synergy meta" directly owed to (de)buff stacking. /shrug

[Eliadil]

If you cause buffs of any particular type to merely stack additively, rather than multiplicatively, you'd already reduce that excess/inadvertent power.

Consider, right now Greased Lightning IV (40%), Twin Snakes (10%), Brotherhood (5%), and Embolden (10%) together add up to a +65% damage modifier, but multiple up to a +78% Damage modifier (at 20% greater effect).

(This is a bit of an inflated example though, as Monk's 50% damage bonus is necessary just to get it up to normal damage, making the real difference nearer to 15.5% vs. 15%, which is only a 3.33% difference in effectiveness, down from 20%.)

Sum them instead, allowing only one of each type, such as Damage, Critical Hit, Direct Hit, Attack Speed, etc., to then apply multiplicative bonuses on buffs (since they cannot be summed with other types). If we cannot calculate damage increases simultaneously between the players and their target, then debuffs would have a similar one of each type limit of their own on multiplicative effects (Trick Attack would only stack additively with Foe Requiem, though both would -effectively- stack multiplicatively with Chain Stratagem, etc.). You'd faintly return compositional concerns, but you'd avoid any enforcement of a "synergy meta" directly owed to (de)buff stacking. /shrug

This is a nice idea, but would require a lot of rework for how the game handles buffs and debuff, on all class. As even the slightest base damage buff (Jinpu, Twin Snakes, or even AST cards) would have a drastically different impact. While I do like this idea, the amount of work it demands may be too big for just one Bard "rework"/new spell.

[Shurrikhan]

This is a nice idea, but would require a lot of rework for how the game handles buffs and debuff, on all class. As even the slightest base damage buff (Jinpu, Twin Snakes, or even AST cards) would have a drastically different impact. While I do like this idea, the amount of work it demands may be too big for just one Bard "rework"/new spell.

It's more a matter of "Is this a change the game should eventually make as not to unintentionally have to balance around synergy metas (and therefore undertune supportive jobs individually) or half-synergy metas (and therefore overtune full synergy metas), etc?"

If we ever want to see more influential buffs, then that's a decision they'll have to consider for themselves: Ought buffs not to be summed at all (as currently the case), summed externally and internally separately, or summed altogether?

[Eliadil]

It's more a matter of "Is this a change the game should eventually make as not to unintentionally have to balance around synergy metas (and therefore undertune supportive jobs individually) or half-synergy metas (and therefore overtune full synergy metas), etc?"

If we ever want to see more influential buffs, then that's a decision they'll have to consider for themselves: Ought buffs not to be summed at all (as currently the case), summed externally and internally separately, or summed altogether?

That's right. Another thing to be mindfull of is that SE announced that 6.0 will see an important number reduction to avoid the WoW problem (with damage hits having way too much zero). I don't know how they plan to do that, but if the base damage of the game is entirely lowered, then this could also have an impact. I mean... Sure, 5% of 600 is still 5% but when you compare it to 5% of 6000, there's still a noteworthy difference imo, that will probably require more balancing around party buffs.