6.0 Bard complete rework please

[Shurrikhan]

It doesn't inherently need a weapon in order to deal damage to things, especially in a setting where magic exists in abundance. One merely helps expand options. Though the main difference is a Bard doesn't need to necessarily rely upon weapons entirely for their combat, nor even for a majority of it.

And yet every example you just gave does in fact use a weapon. For casters, it's purely aesthetic, true, but Dancers? Ninja? Are we just going to ignore how much less versatile Dancer would be, and how little reason it would have to make any of its motions outside of Standard/Technical Step if not for its chakram? Are Ninja's daggers entirely arbitrary and its motions, stats, and toolkit entirely deserving of a different weapon? Do you want to do nothing but spam Ninjutsu 24/7?

Again, while we could arguably have a Bard that does nothing but blast away enemies with voice beams, confuse them into attacking each other with limericks, and force enemies to dance uncontrollably with one skill and to commit suicide with another... is that what the community really wants from Bard -- a weaponless belter of inaudible music that stretches disbelief far more than any other job in this game thus far?

However, the "Issue" is avoided because they're not primarily Rogues with Bard stuck on top, but Bards through and through.

But, by your own definition, they are not. Of its 25 skill acquisitions, 12 are eclectic, relatively arbitrary, and meant merely to make you not a waste of space between applications of utility. And they only have access to the weapon-enhancing magics that Clerics and Druids -- nothing unique to Bard. Perhaps you're using "D&D Bard" in place of "one game's offshoot vision of D&D Bard" but as someone who's played the later in 4e and 5e, this is just blatantly false.

Since the "Issue" is not "Does this weapon fit a Bard?" but merely, how much said "Bard" relies upon weapons as opposed to utilizing music or their voice (Either via shouts, magical words or chants) given that due to the versatility of Bardic magics, you can theoretically justify nearly every weapon for a Bard. It really just depends on what kind of ways the magics are utilized.

Then why are you so hung up on Bard being a Rogue instead of an Archer? It literally does not matter, save that a Rogue is going to be in a less advantageous position to make use of its "bardery" than an Archer would be.

In XIV, most of how Bardic magic is used is via a passive effect, while you just shoot arrows at people. While for some reason, your songs allow you to shoot people with arrows more often (MB/AP) or shoot a aether infused arrow at people (WP).

And I'm not defending that. I've specifically criticized that, including in the post you just quoted. I just see no reason to do as you've hinted at in either (1) completely disarming Bard or forcing it into constant music-playing or (2) swapping it to a Rogue base.

I'd like more Bard in my Bard. I'd be fine with any strictly archery stuff being limited to Archer and all Bard skills thereafter being quite wholly related to "bardery". Heck, I'd prefer if Gunner were the base class for MCH and anything and everything related to wielding (not summoning or augmenting, mind you) guns was limited to GNR, while MCH's own augmentations were purely built around tech. Same for Ninja, same for Monk, etc., etc. But I still want my Bard to feel like a combatant, and I see no reason to completely swap its origins when an Archer is a perfectly reasonable (imo, the most reasonable) base for it.

[Kalise]

And yet every example you just gave does in fact use a weapon. For casters, it's purely aesthetic, true, but Dancers? Ninja? Are we just going to ignore how much less versatile Dancer would be, and how little reason it would have to make any of its motions outside of Standard/Technical Step if not for its chakram? Are Ninja's daggers entirely arbitrary and its motions, stats, and toolkit entirely deserving of a different weapon? Do you want to do nothing but spam Ninjutsu 24/7?

You're missing the point.

The point is that, in this setting, weapons aren't necessary in order to be combat effective.

A Ninja has daggers, yes, but they don't need them in order to cast devastating Ninjutsu.

Also, casters weapons are not purely aesthetic, outside of BLU, they're used to channel aether into their spells.

It's no different to if Bard used an instrument to channel aether into devastating spells. As opposed to simply "Singing Aggressively" at enemies.

Then why are you so hung up on Bard being a Rogue instead of an Archer? It literally does not matter, save that a Rogue is going to be in a less advantageous position to make use of its "bardery" than an Archer would be.

I literally don't care about the base for the class. Be it Archer, Rogue, Potato Farmer etc.

The point is that the base of the class should include Bard. Rather than the base of the class being a complete stand alone class with a full kit that then gets Bard tacked on top.

P.s. Have you ever even used a bow? Especially a high draw weight one? Try singing while constantly pulling back a 100+lb bowstring and then talk about how "Advantageous" a position it is to be barding as an archer.

But I still want my Bard to feel like a combatant

Again, it's very much possible for a Bard to feel like a combatant irregardless of what tool they decide to use as a "Weapon". In a setting where devastating magic can be performed with wholly, un-weaponlike objects (A staff, a book, a rod that is just for show and not actually used to cast BLU magic, hand gestures etc).

The main issue is ensuring that whatever "Weapon" Bard uses, does not overtake their Barding and merely complements it. This can include using a bow, so long as they still get to use songs/magical words as a core combat mechanic.

Though, again, the most "Bard-like" option that there could be, is using a magical instrument to channel aether into magical attacks via playing music. Though it's not necessary to do something like that.

[Shurrikhan]

The point is that, in this setting, weapons aren't necessary in order to be combat effective.

A Ninja has daggers, yes, but they don't need them in order to cast devastating Ninjutsu.

A Bard has bows, yes, but they don't them in order to cast rDPS-powerful Songs.

Meanwhile, a Ninja does need its daggers to perform Hakke Mujinsatsu, Armor Crush, Dream Within a Dream, Assassination, Bhavacakra, and actually making use of Meisui or Bunshin... Of all its actions, its Ninjutsu, Toad, and Shukuchi are the only skills not dependent on its weapons.

I'm not sure why you're trying to make out Bard as such an oddity here.

P.s. Have you ever even used a bow? Especially a high draw weight one? Try singing while constantly pulling back a 100+lb bowstring and then talk about how "Advantageous" a position it is to be barding as an archer.

No. I only own a 55, 70, and a 90. I can readily imagine the exertion one would require, though. That said, that's not then unique to any weapon where there is a useful application of one's strength. A pike is about the only thing I can think of that wouldn't require (or benefit noticeably from) notable physical effort, since no amount of strength is worth putting into that thing rather than swapping to another weapon if someone really gets out of its zone of control.

In a setting where devastating magic can be performed with wholly, un-weaponlike objects (A staff, a book, a rod that is just for show and not actually used to cast BLU magic, hand gestures etc).

So... what, spells ought to be cast specifically through... battleaxes? Longswords? Staves, rods, and grimoires just aren't "weapon" enough for a magician, despite being THE iconic weapons of casters across virtually any and all fantasy settings?

The main issue is ensuring that whatever "Weapon" Bard uses, does not overtake their Barding and merely complements it.

Again, I've agreed with you on this point in every post you've quoted. I just don't know why you're making par-for-the-course design decisions out as a nonsensical oddity or making such a big deal out of its weapon choice even while claiming its weapon should not matter.

[Kalise]

A Bard has bows, yes, but they don't them in order to cast rDPS-powerful Songs.

These days, their songs aren't even THAT powerful for rDPS. Not like they used to be.

I'm not sure why you're trying to make out Bard as such an oddity here.

Because YOU'RE the one saying "But I need muh bard to be able to fite. No bow = no fite = fite with music notes/bad singing!"

Meanwhile, I'm highlighting that being able to fight is not dependent on what weapon they are using. If they even use a weapon over something more "Bard-y" like an instrument, they can still be very effective in combat if needs be.

Simply BECAUSE the setting is one where you can theoritically make anything be able to shoot fireballs and nukes at enemies if you wish.

Therefore, there's no absolute need for Bard to be based on Archer. There's nothing about Archer that is inherently Bard-y. Even if we go by your view of Bard as a tactician, that's not reflected in the Archer we have in game nor even the Bard (If anything, that's SCH with maybe a bit of MCH, though it was rarely us that was in charge in the MCH quests)

Ergo, had SE not shot themselves in the foot by basing Bard on Archer, which is a fully fledged and rounded class by level 30 when Bard can be accessed, they could have instead had Bard be focused more closely on being a Bard, as opposed to an Archer who "Sings" what amounts to merely auras (Which could literally be a thing for Archer, it's not wholly out of the question for such a job to utilize auras)

But as it stands, the job is Archer then level 30 and you become Archer with a touch of Bard. Rather than being Bard through and through (Which, as I've pointed out doesn't necessarily equate to ONLY singing, it can still have standard weapons, just done in a way where said standard weapons don't make up the majority of the core of the class and then barely be deviated from when becoming a "Bard")

This is opposed to other Class > Job transitions, where the base classes naturally flow into the jobs because BOTH are inherently based around the same types of skills and weapons.

Rogue uses daggers and mobility. Ninja uses daggers and mobility. Hence, Rogue > Ninja makes sense.

Marauder uses axes and bops things hard. Warrior uses axes and bops things hard. Hence, Marauder > Warrior makes sense.

Archer uses bows and focuses on shooting things with arrows. Bard sings songs to buff allies, debuff enemies (Since has been removed from XIV's iteration) or cause damage (Has not existed in XIV's iteration). Hence, Archer > Bard doesn't make much sense. Yes, a Bard CAN use a bow and shoot things alongside singing. But that aspect isn't the Bard part of the class. Music and words are what make the Bard.

So... what, spells ought to be cast specifically through... battleaxes? Longswords? Staves, rods, and grimoires just aren't "weapon" enough for a magician, despite being THE iconic weapons of casters across virtually any and all fantasy settings?

What are you even talking about?

I was pointing out that they are capable of being combat effective despite the lack of traditional weaponry. The claim you keep making about being afraid of Bard becoming some sort of singing buff bot the second it loses its bow.

Staves (At least, the magical kind rather than actual quarterstaffs and the like), Rods and Grimoires are not at all standard weaponry. You will not pick one up and go smacking enemies with it. Yet, these classes are also wielders of some of the most potent damaging skills in video games.

Why? Because magic allows you to utilize whatever the heck you want to cast spells with.

Again, I've agreed with you on this point in every post you've quoted. I just don't know why you're making par-for-the-course design decisions out as a nonsensical oddity or making such a big deal out of its weapon choice even while claiming its weapon should not matter.

I'm only standing my ground that having an Archer base, simply takes up far too much of Bard's overall design and its core skills to ever really attain a Bard that feels like a Bard.

Since, unless you simply Trait some of the Archer skills into more Bard-like, "Songs", "Shouts" or other such more Bard-esk attacks as well as causing many new skills added to be more Bard-like, the job will always feel more like an Archer than a Bard.

It's less about Archer uses a bow, and more that Class has too much influence over jobs and SE also has difficulty in transitioning too far from the class (Hence the issues with SMN + SCH, where SMN has vestigial mechanics from ACN namely Aetherflow despite its kit and rotation trying to deviate from it)

With the other side of the issue being that because Bard replaces Archer upon getting to level 30, SE also have to concern themselves with people who are playing Bard simply because they want to be Archers.

Which is a double whammy of problems caused entirely by the initial design of Archer becoming Bard.

It's a similar problem to what MCH is going through, where there are some people who want MCH to be full on Machinist, using gadgets and doohickeys to pelt enemies with explosions and lightning and flamethrowers. While there are others who want MCH to be more Gunner, using their gun to shoot people with bullets.

Where pre-ShB, MCH felt more like Gunner with some MCH stuck on top (Turrets, Wildfire and the Flamethrower) while ShB MCH feels more like Machinist (With drills, auto-crossbows, robots, acid sprays etc)

[Shurrikhan]

Why? Because magic allows you to utilize whatever the heck you want to cast spells with.

Which would matter if and only if Bards were suddenly pure casters for whom the weapon is known to be irrelevant and sought only as part of what is iconic to that role and for purposes of gearing. And if that's what you want, then fine, I guess. As a longtime Monk-Bard main, though, it's not something I'm remotely interested in, and I suspect the playerbase would be similarly split.

Therefore, there's no absolute need for Bard to be based on Archer.

I'm not saying there is. I'm just saying (1) I like that Bard got a real weapon, (2) I like that that weapon is a bow because, even if Bardery might not demand a bow, (3) it makes more sense to me that a Bard would take up a ranged weapon than anything else, largely because (4) I liked the utility-laden kit Archer offered from 1.x through to HW, and (5) I liked Bard's utility being an extension of that initial utility. Simply put, I understand that you for whatever reason take issue with Archer-Bard, but I do not understand that issue beyond wherein there is just too much Archer and too little Bard -- not in Archer's kit, mind you, but in Bard's.

This is opposed to other Class > Job transitions, where the base classes naturally flow into the jobs because BOTH are inherently based around the same types of skills and weapons.

Rogue uses daggers and mobility. Ninja uses daggers and mobility. Hence, Rogue > Ninja makes sense.

Marauder uses axes and bops things hard. Warrior uses axes and bops things hard. Hence, Marauder > Warrior makes sense.

Archer uses bows and focuses on shooting things with arrows. Bard sings songs to buff allies, debuff enemies (Since has been removed from XIV's iteration) or cause damage (Has not existed in XIV's iteration). Hence, Archer > Bard doesn't make much sense. Yes, a Bard CAN use a bow and shoot things alongside singing. But that aspect isn't the Bard part of the class. Music and words are what make the Bard.

Again, each of these things are based purely on how you define the job. If you define Bard by its unique toolkit, rather than its resultant niche, then you should do the same for your other examples, rather than defining them by the overall feel/niche they'd been granted when they had no base classes while instead defining Bard purely by its unique toolkit. I.e....

Rogue uses daggers and mobility. Ninja uses handsigns to summon elemental attacks and giant toads. Oh, and it charges up an oGCD from its normal attacks. Hence, Rogue could have been as easily attached to any class.

Marauder uses axes and bops things hard. Warrior gets bonus-potency variants of its attacks, some of which require charge-up from your normal attacks. Oh, and it gets a self-heal and a damaging oGCD. Hence, Warrior could have been as easily attached to any class.

Or, do as you're doing for Rogue/Ninja and Marauder/Warrior for Archer/Bard, i.e...

(From the ARR PoV) Archer is a hyper-versatile, hyper-mobile, utility-laden multi-range class. Bard is a hyperversatile, utility-focused DPS. It gives a further smattering of (originally tremendously useful) utility to be used from within 20 yalms of allies, which basically requires you to be able to hang out between melee and caster ranges. Hence, Archer > Bard makes sense.

Again, it's not nearly so salient an outlier as you're making it out to be. In the context of base classes and their augmentative tookits, it makes sufficient and comparable sense. This isn't XI. And while you can shout to high heavens that base classes should never have been a thing and that we should have been allowed from level 1 to be, say, veteran royal guards allowed as one of very few into the order of Paladins, you're many expansions too late.

[Kalise]

Which would matter if and only if Bards were suddenly pure casters for whom the weapon is known to be irrelevant

Which it is.

Given that Bards are known for their music and words not the weapon they wield.

That Bards in games and other fantasy settings have been noted to have weapons, they're never usually a prominent feature of them in many cases them being merely last resort weapons when they can't charm or sing their way out of trouble.

And if that's what you want, then fine

What I want is irrelevant here. As it stands, there's no way that Bard is going to be retroactively removed from ARC, with a rewriting of every job quest to remove it from ARC.

It's merely a point about how the initial decisions surrounding ARC > BRD has caused issues surrounding how people see the classes. Hence threads like this where people mention how they don't feel like BRD is a Bard.

Simply put, I understand that you for whatever reason take issue with Archer-Bard, but I do not understand that issue beyond wherein there is just too much Archer and too little Bard -- not in Archer's kit, mind you, but in Bard's.

That's literally the my point though.

BECAUSE of Archer being the base for BRD, we have too much Archer in Bard and not enough Bard.

The same would likely be true irregardless of what class preceded BRD, due to the nature of how much base class influences job.

Given how unique a Bard's kit tends to be, much like with Dancer, having a base class beforehand is not ideal and would have been better served with Bard being pure Bard like all expansion jobs not using a class.

Again, each of these things are based purely on how you define the job.

No, I'm going by literally how they play in the game (With a single slight reference to Bard being able to attack with words/song/shout whatever)

Rogue stabs things with daggers. Ninja stabs things with daggers (But also gets additional Ninjutsu on top)

Marauder hits things with an axe. Warrior hits things with an axe.

Rogue uses daggers and mobility. Ninja uses handsigns to summon elemental attacks and giant toads. Oh, and it charges up an oGCD from its normal attacks. Hence, Rogue could have been as easily attached to any class.

Ninja doesn't ditch Rogue's attacks. To say nothing about how it gets Huton to attack faster (Which is stereotypical for daggers to have faster attacks) as well as Armour Crush, Dream Within a Dream and Assassinate which all attack with their daggers.

Marauder uses axes and bops things hard. Warrior gets bonus-potency variants of its attacks, some of which require charge-up from your normal attacks. Oh, and it gets a self-heal and a damaging oGCD. Hence, Warrior could have been as easily attached to any class.

Warrior doesn't get bonus-potency variants of Marauder attacks.

Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, Meme Cleave, Decimate, Chaotic Cyclone and Inner Chaos are all WARRIOR attacks, that use their axe to bop things.

Marauder skills are their baseline filler combo (Heavy Swing, Maim, Storm's Path/Eye and Overpower) as well as most of their defensive CD's (ToB, Vengeance and Holmgang)

The only boosted version of a Marauder attack they get is when Berserk becomes Inner Release.

(From the ARR PoV) Archer is a hyper-versatile, hyper-mobile, utility-laden multi-range class. Bard is a hyperversatile, utility-focused DPS. It gives a further smattering of (originally tremendously useful) utility to be used from within 20 yalms of allies, which basically requires you to be able to hang out between melee and caster ranges. Hence, Archer > Bard makes sense.

I must have missed the time when Archer was utility laden. Given back in ARR we didn't have the Physical Ranged skills which is where all of Archer's actual utility lies.

Also "Requires you to be ablee to hang out between melee and caster ranges" would be relevant if everyone didn't need to be so because healer AoE's are only 20y radius too.

Unless you mean to say that White Mage and Scholar should have been based on Archer too because mobility right?

Again, it's not nearly so salient an outlier as you're making it out to be.

Archer still plays nothing like a Bard and if it wasn't such an outlier, why does this thread exist but not others? Where's the "Warrior doesn't feel like Warrior" threads? Where's the "Paladin doesn't feel like Paladin" threads? Where's the "Ninja doesn't feel like Ninja" threads?

Why do people talk about how little Bard feels like a Bard, but every other class > job doesn't have the same? Is it because their base classes perform and act similarly to the jobs they become, with no mixed feelings due to the stereotypical identity of the end job being completely at odds with the job in the game?

Literally the only other job that has had this same feedback, has been MCH since it too has straddled 2 different archetypes.

And while you can shout to high heavens that base classes should never have been a thing and that we should have been allowed from level 1 to be, say, veteran royal guards allowed as one of very few into the order of Paladins, you're many expansions too late.

You mean like that guy we help throughout HW? Who literally has no formal training in martial fighting at all. But is allowed to become a Paladin because "He wanted to" and because he collected some (Supposedly) dead Paladin's armour and weapons?

Also, don't forget, you're the one who started this particular argument. I merely stated what I believed.

That being, that the Archer class preceeding Bard is a leading cause for the current Bard to feel more like an Archer than a Bard.

While, you've agreed that current Bard doesn't feel bard-y enough.

You continue to try and win an argument that is meaningless, because it's not as if I'm asking to change Bard (I know that such a thing would be stupid at this point in the game) but merely stating that the decision to have Bard be derived from Archer has caused this particular issue, most prominently, because the core rotations for jobs are based on their classes kits with little alteration (With exception of BLM, whom gets an entirely new base rotation at level 60, which is why many people say that it feels like an entirely new job when you get Fire IV)

[Shurrikhan]

BECAUSE of Archer being the base for BRD, we have too much Archer in Bard and not enough Bard.

Then, by all means, rework the entire game to retroactively remove base classes. Otherwise, tell me which base class, from those not already taken, is so much better.

While, you've agreed that current Bard doesn't feel bard-y enough.

You continue to try and win an argument that is meaningless...

Dude, just tell me how you want Bard to feel more Bard-y then. Thus far, all I've seen from your ideas is that it "could as easily be this or that" and yet we can't have <the majority of what Bard has been enjoyed for thus far> just because it doesn't leave space for <something you've not once described except in vague reference to DnD>.

E.g.

• I would like for Bards to have impactful (ideally playflow-impactful) songs that drain resource and oblige some manner of rotation while still allowing flexible timing between them. Swaps should be oGCD.
  
  
• I want more songs, even if some of them may be more mechanically, rather than rDPS-, significant, such as an in-combat Swiftsong.
  
  
• I want Bards to have a stronger rDPS impact at low player counts, perhaps by having their songs split affect across players based on proximity, with only Battle Voice spreading the effect to all.
  
  
• I want Bards to have further point-support, ideally as a skill that adjusts with song-choice. I want to feel more like the shot-caller as Bard. When I hit X, that has about the same effect as be shouting an order over comms. The song-variants of this skill could be split among allied-targetable and enemy-targetable effects or each song can have an effect for each. Likewise, some Songs' versions of this skill may be a further MP-draining buff, while others simply focus the benefits otherwise received by many allies or enemies onto a single one.
  
  
• I want Bards to have some manner of 'melody mechanic', whereby each section of song you choose has certain junctures at which it best transitions to certain other songs and you can see these coming up. The idea should be, more or less, that these are real but adjustable songs that can sound good in sequence and in altering into one other. Practicing by playing these songs through a 5- to 8-button rotation of Performance should quite literally be useful practice for raiding. Picking the composition for a fight to align the songs you want when you want them is now a part of Bard play. This is important for MP economy and overall effectiveness, and though it makes song-swaps less flexible overall, especially to players who do not know the fights perfectly, the added depth and identity should be worth it.
  
  
• For flavor, we should see "moments of inspiration" in instances, be they purely out of combat or in them as well, where the BGM encourages you to play along via Performance, or at least adjusts certain songs towards something nearer the dungeon BGM. For now I'd suggest they be out-of-combat only, as not to oblige that Bards be masters of Performance for the relatively meager rewards of Standard and Technical Step buffs.

See how none of that demanded we remove 80% of what currently makes a Bard a Bard?

[ty_taurus]

Something I've noticed over time regarding the Bard community is that we are essentially split into camps because of the whole Archer -> Bard situation.

There are the true Bard players who want Bard to either largely or even entirely abandon archery in favor of becoming musicians that not only support, but also attack with music.

There are the true Archer players who picked up the job because they wanted to play the fantasy of a master marksman with the bow and arrow. They don't necessarily want to become a Bard, but are happy that they do have an Archer-like role all things considered.

Lastly, there are what I would define as the "New Age Bard" players who actually love that Archer and Bard are mixed as, for them, it gives the job some new life rather than just being your standard musician or bowman class.

The problem, regardless of play style, is that it seems very difficult to move Bard toward an identity that makes all three of these groups happy... but maybe a rework could actually make that happen.

For that reason, I kinda want to see something big happen. Something I think could work would be taking some inspiration from jobs like Black Mage and/or Red Mage. Create two separate sets of tools, i.e. your archery tools and your musical tools.

Your archery attacks become entirely selfish DPS and effectively act as your burst window. In this moment, your use of music is almost completely non-existent.

Your music attacks are weaker but focus on setting yourself up with a self-buff play style, some of which can still splash over to the rest of your team, but rather than just using your Mage's Ballad or Wonderer's Minuet, you have to build up to get that song in effect by using your musical attack rotation. Kinda like a reverse Black Mage where you want to start with your Blizzard spells to build your MP up first, and then blast through it with Fire. Here you want to set yourself up to use one consistent song that would appear on the gauge, then get 30 seconds to blast through your high damage archery attacks. The process to get there could take about 30 seconds itself, so it's a game of juggling your two themes.

The reason this could work is because it could make each camp happy. Yes, you'll still have this big archery window, but if you want that dedicated musician, you at least have a 30 second window where all you do is sing and play your harp and flute. The same is true in reverse where you may need to play these instruments first, but if you want to be an archer, you get an uninterrupted window of pure archery. The people who like that XIV's Bard is a hybrid will still be able to appreciate this thematic as well.

The numbers and mechanics of this concept would need to be tested, prototyped, and not made to be quite as directly inspired by Black Mage as my example, but that was more about getting the point across. I don't think it should be exactly like that, but something within that ball park.

[Sylvain]

Something I've noticed over time regarding the Bard community is that we are essentially split into camps because of the whole Archer -> Bard situation.

You have the gunner camp and the machine-gadget camp.
Well that was rouhgly the case with MCH too

However SE doesn't add job fast enough to reach a point where every archetype has a job. I don't think bard will get any form of big rework. Beside a bit more song related animation for future skills.
The job currently has a strong and fun gameplay with its various mechanic such as the song rotation. I wouldn't be surprise to see partial rework to have more things added to each song (so each has a more unique playstyle).

I also agree with Shurrikhan, saying you're not happy with something is fine, but so far you've been extremely vague about what you want. I for one do not understand what kind of gameplay youactually want. I understand you want more support but that's still quite vague. And as someone else said, support hardly work in mmo.
If anything the game is in a better state currently because they removed so much support and synergie. Giving too much would just make the job either too attractive or too lackluster (because dps would be too low to compensate for instance).
Just looking and DNC and RDM whole utility vs dps issue, I'm hardly surprised you'd want more of that unless you've never left the comfort of an expert roulette or ex trial.

Anyway, I can't say I'm glad with the current iteration as I havn't leveled it 80 yet, but the change did seem nice so I don't think I won't like it when 80

[MPNZ]

You have the gunner camp and the machine-gadget camp.
Well that was rouhgly the case with MCH too

However SE doesn't add job fast enough to reach a point where every archetype has a job. I don't think bard will get any form of big rework. Beside a bit more song related animation for future skills.
The job currently has a strong and fun gameplay with its various mechanic such as the song rotation. I wouldn't be surprise to see partial rework to have more things added to each song (so each has a more unique playstyle).

I also agree with Shurrikhan, saying you're not happy with something is fine, but so far you've been extremely vague about what you want. I for one do not understand what kind of gameplay youactually want. I understand you want more support but that's still quite vague. And as someone else said, support hardly work in mmo.
If anything the game is in a better state currently because they removed so much support and synergie. Giving too much would just make the job either too attractive or too lackluster (because dps would be too low to compensate for instance).
Just looking and DNC and RDM whole utility vs dps issue, I'm hardly surprised you'd want more of that unless you've never left the comfort of an expert roulette or ex trial.

Anyway, I can't say I'm glad with the current iteration as I havn't leveled it 80 yet, but the change did seem nice so I don't think I won't like it when 80

StB a was really nice iteration of Bard, And the ShB version is basically less busy and SV never really makes up for it and it's a GCD, which feels yucky within the job's flow instead along with the lore becoming just flavor text and outright ignored like it was in HW for a more DPS focused design that interferes with the job's flow through the wanderer's minuet in 3.0. So, if that bugged you: then this might feel just a tiny little uncomfortable even after the patch