6.0 Bard complete rework please

[Vendalwind]

There is also the ninjutsu camp and yhe assassin blade play camp for rogues.

This debate is purely opinion based.

Personally as a ninja right now id like to see a little less magic attacks and a little more blade play, but generally im satisfied. (Dwd, shadow clone, assassinate bhavacakra satisfy me well enough)

Some bard players will always prefer archery, and somr will prefer the music aspect.

Something of note tho. Of the few ff games that jad progressive class growth archer was usually paired close to thief and ninja. Bard has been paired closer in with calculator and summoner. Dancer in fft was also on the physical side of the spectrum, but bard has historically been presented as more magical.

That being said archetypes can be spun many ways. In dnd sword school exists. There are mant different takes, and personally ff14d bard archetype is cool imo.

[Vendalwind]

Also note that the idea of bard being musical at all isnt always present. Like how the harper guild may employ tale weaving, but are in reality dragonslayers.

The origin of bard as a word is actually poets. Not musicians.

Not every fantasy writer presents orcs and elves the same way. Similarly not every fantasy game needs to present each archetypal word with the exact same skillset.

[MerlinCross]

Also note that the idea of bard being musical at all isnt always present. Like how the harper guild may employ tale weaving, but are in reality dragonslayers.

The origin of bard as a word is actually poets. Not musicians.

So we should throw hipster poems on parchment at enemies?

[Vendalwind]

So we should throw hipster poems on parchment at enemies?

Ever had a vogon read poetry to you?
(Please tell me this reference isnt lost haha)

[Valvadrix]

I wish Bard was the more support oriented job while Dancer was the in the middle as far as ranged support to pure DPS goes. Bard's always been known to be the support class, going as far back as D&D, outside of Final Fantasy. But even in the series, it's always been the most support oriented while Dancer was more DPS/debuffing oriented. But this iteration is merged with the typical FF Ranger job (similar to how Ninja is merged with Thief), which adds to the more bow DPS orientation. And since they're written in lore to be musicians who are very skilled with bows, I don't think reworking them to be much less archery oriented would be possible.

[Jirah]

Started the game as BRD but the very last thing we need is all the Ranged DPS to be synonyms Ie what they’re trying to do with healers.

Bards kit is hyper inconsequential compared to Dancer. Natures Minne is nice, Power Voice or whatver is always a plus Wardens Peaon is cool like a esuna shield. I don’t think I needs a complete rework just some adjustments add more songs Troubadour got the healer treatment with “equalize” and a bland animation while Dancer is all flashy and cool looking. What’s the bloody point of making skills among the classes the exact same effect?

I feel the job needs more songstress and less arrows we are a Bard After all.

[MerlinCross]

Ever had a vogon read poetry to you?
(Please tell me this reference isnt lost haha)

Hitchhickers right?

[ty_taurus]

Also note that the idea of bard being musical at all isnt always present. Like how the harper guild may employ tale weaving, but are in reality dragonslayers.

The origin of bard as a word is actually poets. Not musicians.

Not every fantasy writer presents orcs and elves the same way. Similarly not every fantasy game needs to present each archetypal word with the exact same skillset.

The Bard has always been musical in Final Fantasy, which is the series we're playing. We also know that while designing new actions, reworks, and new jobs, the designers aren't just trying to make something that's fun and that performs effectively (even if they don't always succeed), but that they're also trying to capture the fantasy of playing that job as it's played in other Final Fantasy titles. Red Mage is a prime example of this. Why does a Caster DPS deserve to have a reliable healing spell and Resurrection spell? Why is it that they essentially have 2 versions of the same handful of attacks? It was designed because they knew people want the Red Mage to embody the identity of the Final Fantasy Red Mage, and not having their White Magic side would feel like the job wasn't complete.

Bard in all of RPG history may not always be such a heavy musician, but the Final Fantasy Bard often doesn't even have a weapon that's not an instrument. Deuce in Type-0, a Final Fantasy with a militaristic setting where these students are running into gory battlefields, literally has nothing but a flute and does a fantastic job fighting with music alone.

The fact that it's joined at the hip with Archer, though, means that this one Job is essentially trying to fill the shoes of two jobs. At the very least, it would be nice if the job gave each of those rolls an appropriate amount of spotlight to revel in. The archery has always been the dominant aspect of the Bard's toolkit, but even in Stormblood, the musical elements have always felt supplementary. The difference between that and the Ninja, for example, is that the Ninja has traditionally been seen in Final Fantasy using a combination of fast attacking as well as Ninjutsu attacks. Edge is a perfect example of this.

The truth is that Bard doesn't really capture any of the traditional Final Fantasy Bard elements right now. There's nothing that feels like the FF3 or FF5 Bard, Edward from FF4, the FF Tactics Bard or Hurdy from FFTA2, nothing that feels like Yuna as a Songstress, FF11's Bard, or Duece in Type-0. I don't think the Bard needs to change to mirror one of these examples in its entirety, but they should have at least a segment where they embody the job's history in the Final Fantasy series. That's why I propose the idea of altering the job to incorporate a phase where you shift from archery into music, and for that set of time, you're only using musical attacks--more of which could be support oriented, since a lot of Bard players want to feel more akin to what Dancer provides.

EDIT: To add an idea as to what could be added with little change to the current situation... Final Fantasy III was the first title to incorporate a Bard. There' they were restricted to Harps as a weapon type, and the harp you had equipped would actually determine what song was played when using the Song command.

What if we got an oGCD attack called "Bardsong" that had a different effect depending on whether you were playing Mage's Ballad, Army's Paeon, or Wanderer's Minuet? Mage's Ballad causes Bardsong to become Soul Etude, an AoE Regen (Which could be a nice flavor addition for people who want more support on Bard). Army's Paeon causes it to become Black Requiem, doing high burst damage. Wanderer's Minuet causes it to become Hero's March, granting a small attack buff to the party (that would probably not be stackable with Technical Finish).

Bardsong could be on a 30 second cool down so you get each effect once per song you're singing already. I think this would be the best option. You could give it a 60 second cool down and try to make it so that you always get 2 of the songs, but the 2 you get are always shifting since there are 3 30 second song phases, but I'd worry people would sit on it to ensure they're always getting Black Requiem/Hero's March.

[Vendalwind]

I like the bard song oGCD idea. And personally id keep the buffs small and 30 second windowed for the exact reasons you provide.

However there is no reason not to let it stack with technical finish. All other buffs can stack just not group duplicate. It would be weird to have that as a case exemption.

Also i was never arguing bard shouldnt be musical. I was arguing it doesnt necessarily have to, and some people probably very much enjoy this xArcher version. Its like a high charisma ranger that instead of being reclusive likes chatting. My point was just that there are other high fantasy versions of bards.

You do make a fair point tho in noting that the iconic final fantasy bard has always been magical primarily.

[EtherRose]

They just need to make the songs actually good. The buffs aren't really that great.