5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Satarn]

I think WAR's old IR was too complex, especially for what it was supposed to be. Having to manage two cooldowns to double weave a time sensitive buff, that had to go.

Eeeh seriously was it though? You just had a build up phase that was rather easy to follow by looking at your gauge plus Zerk cd(IR was synced with every 2nd Zerk so there was nothing extra to "manage") and then you would spend it while performing one combo to get some more resource in between. I mean it sure was more complicated than just mashing FC 5 times like now, but it was still simpler than many dps jobs.
What was it "supposed" to do anyways?

The importance of IR's damage in 2 minute intervals, only to not have any of them direct crit? Sure, rates of crit affect all jobs, but not all jobs had it be such a focal point like with WAR. It was incredibly easy to lose out a FC and end up with 5 useless gauge. You were punished twice for one mistake.

The direct crits would just normalize over the course of the fight more or less anyways - as they do. Besides, it had nothing to do with the structure of old IR itself. It's just a nature of ANY rotation heavily based on burst, which - IF actually was an issue - could've been better fixed by lessening the output gap between build up and burst phases(which sounds like a nice excuse to add new, interesting downtime skills, unlike 5.0 did, huh).
The shitty crutch solution we got instead with guaranteed direct crits is not only cheap, but it also brings even more problems on its own - like screwing up synergy with raid buffs, which is horribly unsatisfying in a "wrong" comp and seriously hurts your dps for no fault of your own, worse than rng could. It also locks any new big thing they could add into another auto direct crit if they don't want us to shove it into IR - which you can already see with Nascent Chaos skills. Lastly, have fun with melds if you want to play more than one tank.

Bringing up the issue of losing out by missing a single gcd is so freaking backwards btw. You think you don't lose out now? You lose more, because even more dps is focused on a single gcd in IR than before and on top of it, despite the burst "rotation" being simpler, you're more likely to miss a gcd due to stupid lag or disengaging, because the window is tighter. You have to fit 5 gcds in 10 seconds, while before it was 8 gcds in 20 seconds - so 4/10.
You were never "punished twice" - the unspendable 5 gauge was no different than the "free" FIFTY gauge you're pissing away by missing a gcd now(other than actually being worth way less) - the only change is that you can't see it anymore.

I'm glad it's gone. I'm glad we have this current iteration.

If you like current WAR then good for you, you're entitled to your own opinion on what is fun of course. However your arguments that it "had to go", are pretty weak honestly.

[Hierro]

If you like current WAR then good for you, you're entitled to your own opinion on what is fun of course. However your arguments that it "had to go", are pretty weak honestly.

the issue of losing out a single GCD isn't just that it's a single GCD. Unspendable gauge means something down the line. You mention that WAR is just as susceptible now than before, and that's wrong. Fact of the matter is that before you had to account for 20 whole seconds to perform your entire rotation. You could start your burst and have to cut it off early due to mechanic and screw yourself over, as was evident to optimizing Grand Cross Omega during O4S. With the modern iteration, 10 seconds are all you need and need to account for, and far easier to cram in than making sure you get all your 9 GCDs over the course of 20 seconds. No, this version of IR is actually far more robust and resilient to the effects of lag, it's ping-friendly. This ain't blood weapon. Losing out a GCD due to disengagement just isn't as likely nowadays as it was with the old IR.

And that's why it had to go.

[Satarn]

snip

You still lose gauge - IR gives you 50 gauge per gcd to "spend", plus 40 for ogcds, it may not literally show on your bar, but that's what it effectively does. If you miss any gcd/ogcd within its duration, its resource value is wasted as if you overcapped. A missed gcd within old IR, leaving you at 25 gauge was also a 50 wasted initially, but at least you could get 20 of that back thanks to it actually staying on your bar, rather than vanishing into ether like now.
The real gauge value lost was 30, which is still small compared to the full 50 you lose now - the 5 that was left on your bar versus nothing you see now, was literally just a cosmetic difference.

GNB, MNK, DRG, DNC and even SMN all have 20 second buff windows and you somehow don't see them crying about it. Yes, WAR's burst might've been more significant to their overall dps, but that's not an issue with the duration - it's a result of having too much potency crammed into burst and not enough in downtime. If WAR had a problem with their Zerk getting cut short by mechanics, then they just had to plan for that like every other of many jobs with 20 second burst windows.
Some mechanics might've made it impossible to do a full window, but that's still the same as every other job with a similar length buff. The only job that was uniquely entitled to complaints about their burst getting cut short was MCH with older versions of Wildfire, because a cut WF literally didn't do anything due to how the ability worked. Any other job - including WAR - just got a weaker burst window than usual.

Besides, I wasn't talking about the boss disengaging - I was talking about the WAR having to disengage for a second to deal with a mechanic and how that - as well as lag - is more likely to cost you a gcd, the tighter your burst window is. IR doesn't need to have a screwed up timer like BW to have it happen occasionally, it just needs to have relatively more gcds in its rotation than old Zerk had - which is does.
Old IR was more likely to be cut by you screwing up and new IR is more likely to be cut by bullshit out of your control. I generally prefer stuff that's on me, so I can just learn to do it better next time, but I guess that's up to one's preference.

It's fine if you like WAR being simpler now, not all jobs have to be super complex(although these days it's more like none are) and it's okay to prefer more relaxed things. It's just silly to argue that old IR was objectively flawed mechanically and thus "HAD to go", by pretending that WAR somehow worked under different laws than rest of the jobs and that the new version is free of issues, when there's plenty wrong with it.

[Hierro]

GNB, MNK, DRG, DNC and even SMN all have 20 second buff windows and you somehow don't see them crying about it.

When you refer to those other jobs, MNK had a recast shorter, DRG's BL could be held becuase of its long cooldown, you'd only get a few uses regardless. GNB, while NM is 20 seconds, it also only has 60 seconds recast and not all GCDs are crucial to pull off as you never see anyone cry about missing a buffed keen edge. DNC, it's nowhere near a significant buff as with old IR. SMN is about the only other job I'd say is comparable, but even then their damage isn't as centralized.

IR was very different in that regard and it's good to acknowledge it, but don't pretend other jobs had it as rough.

[Satarn]

When you refer to those other jobs, MNK had a recast shorter, DRG's BL could be held becuase of its long cooldown, you'd only get a few uses regardless. GNB, while NM is 20 seconds, it also only has 60 seconds recast and not all GCDs are crucial to pull off as you never see anyone cry about missing a buffed keen edge. DNC, it's nowhere near a significant buff as with old IR. SMN is about the only other job I'd say is comparable, but even then their damage isn't as centralized.

IR was very different in that regard and it's good to acknowledge it, but don't pretend other jobs had it as rough.

One is better because it's more rare than old IR and the other is better because it's more common? So which is it? Also what BL, I was referring to DRG's Lance Charge, which is 90 sec cd(but I guess that's also better somehow, because reasons).

The bit about being more/less significant loss is - again, like I've explained in the part of the post you've cut - tied to how much of total dps is focused in the burst itself, not to buff length, which could be adjusted. It wasn't an "all or nothing" situation like you're trying to portray it either - losing a gcd didn't mean the entire window went to trash, at the end of the day lost potency is lost potency, there's just a difference of how much.

WAR's damage wasn't even fully centralized in IR like now, there were raw Zerks as well, but you seem to talk as if IR windows were all you had. Meanwhile DNC really does only have its 2 min window as the one spot which they cram all their resources into.
Dps jobs also usually have way more complex burst rotations than what WAR had, so that's an additional factor that makes saying "oh poor WAR had it so rough" rather odd. Mistakes might've been punishing, but they weren't exactly difficult to avoid.

[Hierro]

Mistakes might've been punishing, but they weren't exactly difficult to avoid.

And to that, I ask what experience have you in the matter? I don't think many other jobs had the complex task of a burst window like old IR. All I can find is a single O1S clear to your name, so how can you honestly say anything about how managable old IR was? Come on, now.

[Satarn]

And to that, I ask what experience have you in the matter? I don't think many other jobs had the complex task of a burst window like old IR. All I can find is a single O1S clear to your name, so how can you honestly say anything about how managable old IR was? Come on, now.

While I was indeed just starting to raid at the time, I did o2s and Shinryu EX(which was supposedly e3s difficulty, although I wouldn't be able to say personally so idk) as well - you won't find most of my runs in logs, as people I ran with didn't upload much at the time. It wasn't quite as bad as just one Alte Roite kill, but I won't bullshit that I was really experienced either of course.

That said, being the baby nooblet that I was, I still didn't find executing WAR's rotation very difficult at all, so that kinda says something too. I'm sure it would be more challenging in o4s or UcoB obviously, but which job's rotation isn't? IR window itself was a very simple sequence of buttons. It lacked all the double weaving, positionals and reacting to procs that a lot of dps jobs have in their bursts.

[DaulBan]

All I can find is a single O1S clear to your name, so how can you honestly say anything about how managable old IR was? Come on, now.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...640&height=502

If you wanna appeal to authority, I can say with 100% confidence as one of the top 50 Warriors at the time, it wasn't that bad.

[ArianeEwah]

And that's why it had to go.

I disagree, it never "had to go", it simply had to change - but not as big of a change 4.2 IR was.

Yes, the issues with gauge points were real, but completely igoring gauge generation/saving for your burst - to make it even more braindead - is not an appropriate solution. Its 60s/120s window was too similar to PLD... or vice versa. Going back to 90s was the right call, but reducing the burst duration? I don't think that was or is a necessity. Otherwise multiple other jobs would have had the same problem, e.g. GNB-No Mercy, MNK-RoF, SMN-Bahamut/Phoenix, BRD-Raging Strikes/BV, DRG-LC/DS/BL - all have 20s durations. I don't see them complaining about their burst duration. Double buffing every 120s... eh, well - a little annoying, but on a very low level.

The first issue with gauge spending during 4.0/4.1 IR could've been solved by changing the gauge cost reduction. Instead of halving the cost, why not reduce it by a fixed amount - like 10 or 20 gauge for every gauge skill/ability? 20 less gauge points wouldn't have changed anything in 4.1 rotation at all, yet "missing your last FC" would leave your gauge with an even number, something we could've worked with.

Personally, I have other issues with the 4.1 iteration, as well as the 4.2+ iteration.
While the Infuriate trait was neat, it only served for re-aligning this CD with your burst CD after the opener, and after downtime. It wasn't really doing anything like 90% of a fight. The newer rotation actually made use of it which is nice... yet, within the current charge system, and how many FCs are used, it could also be a CD reduction trait from 60s to 30s... which would be better imo because of downtime, but whatever.
Onslaught doesn't have much use since 4.2 outside IR, or it f*cks up your rotation, since you'll be missing a FC... then you work around the "left-over" gauge with a 2nd Onslaught, and swap a SP for SE, or skip your next Upheaval... less than optimal. Whereas in the 4.1 iteration, FC was never used outside of Berserk. I would've liked a hybrid of both, where I can FC outside of burst windows, yet still use Onslaught without losing a GCD/FC.
I enjoy the rotation outside of IR, but at the same time it feels very stale, too, and it contributes the least to your dps with the exception of IC. I get why many people don't like it.

edit: Satarn explained the burst duration topic much better and with more detail, as well as the lost GCD during burst issue I barely mentioned here.

[Satarn]

snip

I don't think that the 60/120 buff cds were really similar to PLD - WAR's rotation in downtime and bursts was pretty different and focused on different goals, while PLD does more or less the same things, just with added potency. Changed IR felt way closer to PLD's Req than old Zerk did to FoF.
I also really enjoyed raw Zerk being a bit different from IR+Zerk, as it made the rotation feel slightly more varied. As for the leftover gauge I couldn't care less - if anything it served as a good indicator to tell people, that they might be doing things wrong and should look into improving that.

I do however agree on the points regarding not using Infuriate and Fell Cleave outside of Zerk for the most part. There was some occasional use of them, if you really got into optimization, but it wasn't very intuitive, which made Enhanced Infuriate feel somewhat useless.
The trait itself I think was just overall ill-fitting for WAR's kit at the time and could probably be scrapped(or adjusted to fit better if possible), but the issue of FC usage during downtime could've been easily fixed with a new skill, while dealing with 2 other problems at the same time.

With its heavy focus on gcds, WAR feels a bit lacking in ogcds sometimes. An additional gauge generator in a low cd offensive ability(and no, NOT Onslaught, as that was perfectly fine being a spender, plus the goal is to add something new), could serve to fuel an extra FC or two during the build up phase. This would also add more potency outside of Zerks, lessening the gap and making messed up bursts less costly.