SCH needs help

[Brandedblade]

In fairness this is how I've tended to view shields, rather than to be a like-for-like to a heal but instead have a different practical use. It acts as a nice buffer for damage. To me heals have had a higher potency because they are intented to top up people's health.

Hence I generally liked SCH's initial design, because it's pure healing potential always felt weaker, but it'd handle problems differently to say, a WHM.

I suppose then it's like training wheels? They help keep you stable and safe but eventually you take them off and take the risk for more efficiency and thus a reward.

[Saefinn]

I suppose then it's like training wheels? They help keep you stable and safe but eventually you take them off and take the risk for more efficiency and thus a reward.

I don't even think of it like that, but a different way of keeping people alive.

Because if we look at 2.0 where SCH had that principle, it was a weaker burst healer but mitigated damage better and used shields.

Arguably WHM was the easier healer despite it not having that buffer beyond Stoneskin. And I recommended it for peoe who were completely new.

The terms I used to differentiate the two healing styles back then was "pre-emptive" and "reactive", I always felt SCH's approach worked better if planned well, but WHM had better tools to react to problems more easily.

I'd say during that "training" phase healers are more likely to be reactive because they aren't predicting and preventing damage as they can predict it. Though I suppose hypothetically one could keep shields up constantly as a safe measure if they're not confident. But just not how I've tended to view it or play it.

Nowadays the lines are a little more blurred than they were as SCH has greater pure healing potential and has to work much less to keep people topped up. But in a situation where healing is more intensive, then SCH still has a "pre emptive" or planned approach if you can predict when damage is coming because of its toolset.

At least, this was the dynamic I always liked about SCH healing and the tools are still there but I think with how well they heal versus the content its less meaningful, but in situations where you are pushed then I find it is great.

[Semirhage]

In all my years of playing mmos I've always heard mitigation is always stronger then healing. While I get it in some situations.

Game design ramble incoming.

This is true in theory, in a game design sense. Shielding is mechanically more powerful than direct heals or regens. What is meant by this is, take a straight heal. Keeping all other things the same (resource cost, cast time, targets, range, total potency, etc) and slap a shield on it. That heal is now more powerful than it was before. It's capable of salvaging more situations than it originally was. The opposite is true of a regen. Take a heal, parcel its potency out over time. It's now capable of salvaging fewer scenarios, because, again in a vacuum, its potency alone might get someone killed if it can't outpace the damage.

This is the root of why shielding spells are more resource-expensive than normal heals, and regens are cheaper. It's the price tag for mechanical advantage. Now, these can be priced in a way that makes the regens better outside the spherical cows world of the design vacuum, but it's why shielding is "better".

[Brandedblade]

Game design ramble incoming.

This is true in theory, in a game design sense. Shielding is mechanically more powerful than direct heals or regens. What is meant by this is, take a straight heal. Keeping all other things the same (resource cost, cast time, targets, range, total potency, etc) and slap a shield on it. That heal is now more powerful than it was before. It's capable of salvaging more situations than it originally was. The opposite is true of a regen. Take a heal, parcel its potency out over time. It's now capable of salvaging fewer scenarios, because, again in a vacuum, its potency alone might get someone killed if it can't outpace the damage.

This is the root of why shielding spells are more resource-expensive than normal heals, and regens are cheaper. It's the price tag for mechanical advantage. Now, these can be priced in a way that makes the regens better outside the spherical cows world of the design vacuum, but it's why shielding is "better".

This also plays very heavily into why SE seems to scared to do things like allow the old crit-lo with Recitation and their reluctance to reduce the mp cost of Nocturnal Aspected Benefic.

They seem determined to avoid a scenario like in world of warcraft where the formerly shield-oriented disc priest, while sometimes extremely weak at the start of the expansion, would grow extremely powerful and nigh meta defining by the end due to how much damage it flat out negated throughout a raid. Because of the nature of mitigation, SE is forced to compensate by making it more costly and/or extremely capped in its potential. That was an element I always appreciated about sch and how its balanced. But they seem to not get it down right with Noct Ast.

[KDSilver]

This also plays very heavily into why SE seems to scared to do things like allow the old crit-lo with Recitation and their reluctance to reduce the mp cost of Nocturnal Aspected Benefic.

While I won't lie, I loved old critlo, it was too powerful really. When you had it, you knew you could completly ignore the next raid wide aoe damage.
This is something that Ast and WHM couldn't do, and was a part of why SCH was prefered so much over Noct Ast aswell (still rng outside of the pull fishing crit indeed, but when it happened, that was a huge and safe plus).
Introducing a forced crit on several abilities while also nerfing critlo was a good move on their part I think.

So not a question of being scared or anything I think.
But from a healer perspective as a whole, I'd say, it was more for the balance.

[Brandedblade]

While I won't lie, I loved old critlo, it was too powerful really. When you had it, you knew you could completly ignore the next raid wide aoe damage.
This is something that Ast and WHM couldn't do, and was a part of why SCH was prefered so much over Noct Ast aswell (still rng outside of the pull fishing crit indeed, but when it happened, that was a huge and safe plus).
Introducing a forced crit on several abilities while also nerfing critlo was a good move on their part I think.

So not a question of being scared or anything I think.
But from a healer perspective as a whole, I'd say, it was more for the balance.

You're correct. Its absolutley a balance thing.

As far as being on topic. I think sch is still decently designed overall. The only major thing I can think of that scholar feels lacking in is not having a good emphasis on the fae guage. I'm rather fond of the concept of scholar being all about cycling your mp, aetherflow, and fae gauge in a nice loop to optimize both your damage and healing. To me sch has evolved from being a primarily shield focused healer to a resource and a cooldown management healer, so I wouldnt mind seeing them work out a system that further incentivizes creating said loop of resources.

[Raylazer11]

Just sounds like you wanna play WHM to me. SCH has some issues sure I think everyone can agree with that. But 98% of what you said is unfounded.

[Whichi]

theres some really great points here OP. Don't listen to anyone telling you SCH isnt lacking statistics and data atm PROVE that scholar is by far the worst healer. World first shiva extreme even went ahead to skip SCH and used ASTRO / WHM in their group comp. The facts are that SCH has to give away 150 potency for every heal that isnt recitation and whm / astro do not WHM loses 300 for each set of lilys they use but in some fights that can even be a gain if theres multiple targets OR downtime. On top of glare / dia being insane. ASTRO doesnt lose ANYTHING to weave healing. SCH's tank healing is abysmal now and their mitigation is SUBPAR compared to astro.

[KDSilver]

theres some really great points here OP. Don't listen to anyone telling you SCH isnt lacking statistics and data atm PROVE that scholar is by far the worst healer. World first shiva extreme even went ahead to skip SCH and used ASTRO / WHM in their group comp. The facts are that SCH has to give away 150 potency for every heal that isnt recitation and whm / astro do not WHM loses 300 for each set of lilys they use but in some fights that can even be a gain if theres multiple targets OR downtime. On top of glare / dia being insane. ASTRO doesnt lose ANYTHING to weave healing. SCH's tank healing is abysmal now and their mitigation is SUBPAR compared to astro.

So...

- What are your data exactly ? I'm curious
- What you're saying is that Scholar has to trade its DPS for healing. How does that make his healing toolkit less valuable ? He always had to trade Energy Drain for a healing ability, that's not new.

If Scholar seems to slowly fall behind, that's not because of its healing toolkit, but its pDPS and rDPS. And Energy drain will not close the gap.
Ast rDPS depending on party can be close to WHM's one or even superior. Their rDPS combined seems sto have more potential than paired with a SCH.

I'm waiting for these data.

[Whichi]

So...

- What are your data exactly ? I'm curious
- What you're saying is that Scholar has to trade its DPS for healing. How does that make his healing toolkit less valuable ? He always had to trade Energy Drain for a healing ability, that's not new.

If Scholar seems to slowly fall behind, that's not because of its healing toolkit, but its pDPS and rDPS. And Energy drain will not close the gap.
Ast rDPS depending on party can be close to WHM's one or even superior. Their rDPS combined seems sto have more potential than paired with a SCH.

I'm waiting for these data.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

he healing in the ultimate fight sch is outclassed by BOTH other healers btw they're also outclassed in damage in the highest scenarios (except aoe they outdo astro on aoe damage) already so chadding as sch is not good healing alot is also not good. (as if they can heal alot anyway lol)

The ultimate fight is MORE than good enough for Data regarding the healers and sch is under performing hard.