The problem with the mentor system

[SoranRigel]

It doesn't generate bullying and toxicity. These are things that exist with or without the system. It isn't the cause of it.

Not every player additionally puts a check mark under the item "be a model of correct game behavior". Mentors do this.
And mentors, unfortunately, show such game (and non-game) behavior that is not worth tolerating.

Toxicity exists in two cases:
1. There are those who are ready to use it.
2. There are those who are willing to tolerate it.

Don't consider me arrogant, but my gaming experience allows me to compare different gaming systems. In those games where no awards are relied upon to help newbies, I have seen much less toxicity. I can assume that authority, albeit expressed in symbols - an exclusive mount, achievements, a pixel crown, a honorary title "mentor" - has a negative impact on young immature minds.

The authority corrupt and gives a perceived sense of impunity, especially when there is a tacit indulgence of the existing order in the gaming community.

As has been repeatedly mentioned here, the absence of special awards or pixel crown in no way prevents the provision of assistance to newbies. But the aggressive resistance of those for whom this pixel crown is extremely important speaks eloquently for itself.

Help must be selfless. If this is not so, we get what we get: aggressive, toxic and not helping players who compensate for their own inferiority at the expense of others.

[RajNish]

It's kind of like petitioning the government to delete an entire highway because you had a run in with a jerk who was drunk driving and crashed into you, when thousands of people use that same highway everyday with no issue. The other driver being drunk and crashing into you has nothing to do with the highway simply existing. They were drunk, and a jerk. You call the police and get them arrested.

Not certainly in that way. Speaking in your own language of metaphors, it’s as if accidents caused by unscrupulous drivers occurred all the time on a broken section of the road, so we don’t complain about unscrupulous drivers, we give examples and ask that the section of the road be corrected so that it was no longer possible to break the rules. Because only police reports, with such a system, do not fix anything.

The proposal of the OP to change the icon seems very reasonable to me, because there will remain people whom the newcomer will be able to ask for help, but this will not be visually related to prestige or elitism. It would also be good if we had a really working blacklist, so as not to meet these people in roulette.

You say that this is not the fault of the mentors, but there are people who cast a shadow on the mentors, and there are a lot of them. That is why many of the respectable mentors take off the crown. In this way, two problems could be solved at once. People who have a mentor status just for the crown will leave. People who want to help others will be able to act with a icon that is not associated with power and prestige.

[SoranRigel]

I am simply trying to put forth logic into the situation and explain why people may counter your arguments. It is best not to assume that the sole reason I am countering your stance is because I don't want the mentor system deleted. You would be incorrect.

I regret that I may not have understood you correctly enough. Your reasoning is logical, but they do not cancel that the system itself, based on awards and special statuses, provokes bulling.
That is why I continue to believe that such a system should be abolished.
Especially since there are many alternative ways to help others.

[Miste]

Not certainly in that way. Speaking in your own language of metaphors, it’s as if accidents caused by unscrupulous drivers occurred all the time on a broken section of the road, so we don’t complain about unscrupulous drivers, we give examples and ask that the section of the road be corrected so that it was no longer possible to break the rules. Because only police reports, with such a system, do not fix anything.

My metaphor wasn't talking about possible "fixes" or "improvements" to said road. If you reread my post you'll see I was specifically talking about people who want to outright delete the road entirely. So your metaphor isn't really relevant to mine.

Even with your metaphor, you still have to prove the road is completely broken, unusable, or that the majority has a negative experience first to actually get people on your side to rally to fix said road. You know how governments are, you have to get the government think it is worth it to spend the time/money to fix it.

What if the majority of people think the road is fine? You have to find this data out to make logical reasoning. If 0.03% think the road needs fixing, but the other 99.97% think it is fine as it is....then what? This is just an example though, obviously we would need way more information on the good side of the road first.

Hence the whole issue people have with "I had a negative experience, delete it."

The proposal of the OP to change the icon seems very reasonable to me, because there will remain people whom the newcomer will be able to ask for help, but this will not be visually related to prestige or elitism. It would also be good if we had a really working blacklist, so as not to meet these people in roulette.

Make sure you read my previous post. I have no issue with the OPs suggestion to change the icon. I actually said they could change the icon if it will help, I personally don't care what icon they use. I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion.

[RajNish]

Even with your metaphor, you still have to prove the road is completely broken, unusable

Not necessary. It can be quite used, and not completely broken. But there may be potholes on it, because of which people drive off onto the sidewalk. I see these potholes, and I say - there is a pothole, it’s simple, and I don’t need statistics, who and how many times collided or hit the sidewalk.

Make sure you read my previous post. I have no issue with the OPs suggestion to change the icon. I actually said they could change the icon if it will help, I personally don't care what icon they use. I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion.

When humanity moved from manufactory to factory, approximately the same thing happened. Some broke the machines, others were not sure that it would be any good.

[SoranRigel]

What if the majority of people think the road is fine? You have to find this data out to make logical reasoning. If 0.03% think the road needs fixing, but the other 99.97% think it is fine as it is....then what? This is just an example though, obviously we would need way more information on the good side of the road first.

You will never know from those who left the game due to their collision with toxic mentors what they think about this system.
You will not learn about this in those who for some reason consider toxicity to be a normal style of communication.
And you 'll never know from those who drowned about dolphins that push people into the high seas, instead of pushing them toward the shore.
I hope, analogy is clear?

[MomomiMomi]

You will never know from those who left the game due to their collision with toxic mentors what they think about this system.
You will not learn about this in those who for some reason consider toxicity to be a normal style of communication.
And you 'll never know from those who drowned about dolphins that push people into the high seas, instead of pushing them toward the shore.
I hope, analogy is clear?

I've actually noticed that a lot of the complaints come from people who went into the Novice Network once, saw something negative, and then left, never to return. This results in a skewed view of the NN. They don't know about all the good things that are going on in there because they turned it off and never went back. I've seen these types of people countless times in threads like this one.

[Miste]

Not necessary. It can be quite used, and not completely broken. But there may be potholes on it, because of which people drive off onto the sidewalk. I see these potholes, and I say - there is a pothole, it’s simple, and I don’t need statistics, who and how many times collided or hit the sidewalk.

This no longer works as a metaphor for the mentor system. You are implying that an unavoidable pothole exists that every single driver will hit so they "have" to fix it, no statistics needed because "everyone hits the pothole".

A pothole that every driver hits can't be compared to negative mentor experiences because you are implying everyone driving on the road is impacted by the potholes when you cannot make that claim that every single player playing FFXIV is negatively impacted by the mentor system. You just altered it in a way where it doesn't work anymore.

So yes, you do need statistics to know if the mentor system needs reworking, or to be deleted entirely. You NEED information to find out if the mentor system is overall negative. Otherwise you could be deleting something that actually was helping the majority of people who interacted with it.

[RajNish]

You are implying that an unavoidable pothole exists that every single driver will hit so they "have" to fix it, no statistics needed because "everyone hits the pothole".

Where exactly did I say "everyone"? Where did I say "unavoidable"? Please do not misinterpret my words. I said that the system can and should be changed, in my opinion. You said: "I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion". Our points of view diverge. It’s okay, but please do not try to devote me to your religion, because you also do not have information how many reports come to GM’s.

[Miste]

Where exactly did I say "everyone"? Where did I say "unavoidable"? Please do not misinterpret my words. I said that the system can and should be changed, in my opinion. You said: "I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion". Our points of view diverge. It’s okay, but please do not try to devote me to your religion, because you also do not have information how many reports come to GM’s.

I'm not trying to devote you to my religion?????????????????????????????????????????????????? You are replying to me so I am replying to you....you replied to me first remember? You tried to counter my metaphor, but problem is you didn't read my post carefully enough so your metaphor wasn't relevant to mine. I tried to answer it anyway, but it still wasn't relevant to my original post.

I never said the system can't and shouldn't be changed. So again this is you not reading what I am saying. I said that SE could try changing the icon from a crown to something else, sure go for it, but my opinion is it won't change anything because players who are jerks will be jerks no matter what.

Your metaphor just leads us back to square one, because again, you don't know if the majority of players in FFXIV have a negative experience with the system, and YES of course I don't know how many reports are sent in, or how much good the system does, neither do you. That's the whole point.

Like I said already, my original post was specifically talking about people who want the entire system deleted simply because "I had a negative experience, so delete it". I am not saying the system can't be improved or fixes added, but it depends on if SE sees this as necessary and one of the things that would help them decide would be real statistics.

You keep replying to me about "fixes" or "changes" when that wasn't even the point of my original post. So, why are you replying to me?? It's really your initial fault that you are arguing in circles with me. You didn't read my original post thoroughly enough and assumed I was against fixes or changes when I am not, and not listening to me when I clarified multiple times. You replied to me first, and you are 100% replying to me for no reason right from the get go, so I find it super silly you are claiming I am trying to devote you to my religion. I am not sure why you felt the need to say something like that at all really. /shrug