The problem with the mentor system

[Miste]

There is a steady trend in this topic: those, who advocate for maintaining a mentor system, discount the experience of others, using dirty discussion techniques like “your evidence is not evidence” or calling opponents, who talk about their real negative experiences, a “crying wolves”.

All this suggests one thing: the system of toxic "elite", named "mentors", should be immediately canceled. There are many who can help others, and a crown is not needed for this. Thanks to those experienced players who helped me more than once, explained and supported me. Many of them, being "mentors" by rank, are afraid to wear the crown, because it has become a symbol of toxicity. There are many reference resources, including this forum and youtube.

We do not need people who assert their right to humiliate others for the sake of the crown and shut our mouths.

Pointing out that your evidence is not evidence is not toxic or "dirty discussion techniques"....it is just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning for deleting the system over the few people who have negative experiences when it may be working as intended. Sure there are "bad" mentors, but that doesn't erase all the good mentors using the system to help new players in content and in the NN. It doesn't erase all the good help newbies have obtained via mentors/NN.

When people say "I had a negative experience with the mentor system so it should be deleted."

It is not "dirty discussion techniques" or "toxic" to ask: "How do you know the mentor system overall is more negative than positive and should be removed?"

How do you know?

One person's (or a few people's) experiences is not the whole picture. It's kind of like petitioning the government to delete an entire highway because you had a run in with a jerk who was drunk driving and crashed into you, when thousands of people use that same highway everyday with no issue. The other driver being drunk and crashing into you has nothing to do with the highway simply existing. They were drunk, and a jerk. You call the police and get them arrested.

Sorta like how bad mentors don't have anything to do with the system existing. If a player is a jerk they will still be a jerk with or without the system in place. The only thing you can do is just call the GM and report them for harassment if that is what they are doing.

It does suck people have negative experiences, but people have negative experiences in this game everyday with any player. Even you said it: you don't need a mentor crown to mentor....well you also don't need a mentor crown to be a jerk. Anyone who is a jerk or humiliating others will still do it even if the mentor system no longer exists. So in the end, what was accomplished by removing it?

If changing the crown to a different icon would change anything then sure SE could try it. I just personally do not believe that a pixel image of a crown turns normally nice players into "toxic elite jerks". Like that is some serious Jekyll and Hyde that a tiny image of a crown suddenly turns a good person into an evil one whenever they wear it. It sounds crazy tbh.

Anyone who thinks the crown makes them superior to others is delusional at best anyway and not worth your time, getting mentor status requires little effort and is not difficult to obtain.

[RajNish]

It's kind of like petitioning the government to delete an entire highway because you had a run in with a jerk who was drunk driving and crashed into you, when thousands of people use that same highway everyday with no issue. The other driver being drunk and crashing into you has nothing to do with the highway simply existing. They were drunk, and a jerk. You call the police and get them arrested.

Not certainly in that way. Speaking in your own language of metaphors, it’s as if accidents caused by unscrupulous drivers occurred all the time on a broken section of the road, so we don’t complain about unscrupulous drivers, we give examples and ask that the section of the road be corrected so that it was no longer possible to break the rules. Because only police reports, with such a system, do not fix anything.

The proposal of the OP to change the icon seems very reasonable to me, because there will remain people whom the newcomer will be able to ask for help, but this will not be visually related to prestige or elitism. It would also be good if we had a really working blacklist, so as not to meet these people in roulette.

You say that this is not the fault of the mentors, but there are people who cast a shadow on the mentors, and there are a lot of them. That is why many of the respectable mentors take off the crown. In this way, two problems could be solved at once. People who have a mentor status just for the crown will leave. People who want to help others will be able to act with a icon that is not associated with power and prestige.

[Miste]

Not certainly in that way. Speaking in your own language of metaphors, it’s as if accidents caused by unscrupulous drivers occurred all the time on a broken section of the road, so we don’t complain about unscrupulous drivers, we give examples and ask that the section of the road be corrected so that it was no longer possible to break the rules. Because only police reports, with such a system, do not fix anything.

My metaphor wasn't talking about possible "fixes" or "improvements" to said road. If you reread my post you'll see I was specifically talking about people who want to outright delete the road entirely. So your metaphor isn't really relevant to mine.

Even with your metaphor, you still have to prove the road is completely broken, unusable, or that the majority has a negative experience first to actually get people on your side to rally to fix said road. You know how governments are, you have to get the government think it is worth it to spend the time/money to fix it.

What if the majority of people think the road is fine? You have to find this data out to make logical reasoning. If 0.03% think the road needs fixing, but the other 99.97% think it is fine as it is....then what? This is just an example though, obviously we would need way more information on the good side of the road first.

Hence the whole issue people have with "I had a negative experience, delete it."

The proposal of the OP to change the icon seems very reasonable to me, because there will remain people whom the newcomer will be able to ask for help, but this will not be visually related to prestige or elitism. It would also be good if we had a really working blacklist, so as not to meet these people in roulette.

Make sure you read my previous post. I have no issue with the OPs suggestion to change the icon. I actually said they could change the icon if it will help, I personally don't care what icon they use. I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion.

[RajNish]

Even with your metaphor, you still have to prove the road is completely broken, unusable

Not necessary. It can be quite used, and not completely broken. But there may be potholes on it, because of which people drive off onto the sidewalk. I see these potholes, and I say - there is a pothole, it’s simple, and I don’t need statistics, who and how many times collided or hit the sidewalk.

Make sure you read my previous post. I have no issue with the OPs suggestion to change the icon. I actually said they could change the icon if it will help, I personally don't care what icon they use. I just personally don't think it would change anything, but that is my opinion.

When humanity moved from manufactory to factory, approximately the same thing happened. Some broke the machines, others were not sure that it would be any good.

[SoranRigel]

What if the majority of people think the road is fine? You have to find this data out to make logical reasoning. If 0.03% think the road needs fixing, but the other 99.97% think it is fine as it is....then what? This is just an example though, obviously we would need way more information on the good side of the road first.

You will never know from those who left the game due to their collision with toxic mentors what they think about this system.
You will not learn about this in those who for some reason consider toxicity to be a normal style of communication.
And you 'll never know from those who drowned about dolphins that push people into the high seas, instead of pushing them toward the shore.
I hope, analogy is clear?

[Deceptus]

There is a steady trend in this topic: those, who advocate for maintaining a mentor system, discount the experience of others, use dirty discussion techniques like “your evidence is not evidence” or call opponents, who talk about their real negative experiences, a “crying wolves”.

We do not need people who assert their right to humiliate others for the sake of the crown, and shut our mouths.

And on the opposite end you have people who have one bad experience with a mentor and think that all mentors are like that.

[Jojoya]

And on the opposite end you have people who have one bad experience with a mentor and think that all mentors are like that.

It's not all mentors but enough are a problem that the system isn't serving its purpose. When I sit in the Novice Network on one of my alts, it's usually sprouts helping other sprouts while the mentors are talking about non-game related topics and ignoring the questions getting asked. Occasionally a mentor will chip in with helpful information but it's rare. SE could remove mentors from the Novice Network and leave it open to sprouts to help each other, and new players wouldn't know the difference.

Too many mentors leave a negative impression on other players instead of a positive one. The system needs more oversight by SE to ensure those who are mentors are fulfilling that roie as SE intends (help others, be an exemplar of player etiquette) and that those who aren't get removed. If SE will not do that, then the mentor system should be disbanded. Players will always have other players who are willing to help that don't require having that crown next to their names. Adventurer in Need is already in place to help fill the parties in duty finder.

[SoranRigel]

it is just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning for deleting the system over the few people who have negative experiences when it may be working as intended.

That 's the problem. No matter how many hundreds of people talk about having a problem, it will be beneficial for you to deny it and say that "an isolated experience proves nothing."
This is called "depreciation." Depreciation is in your interest.

Do you want a piece of good advice?
Stop doing that right now. Perhaps if you stop devaluing, humming, make "dispute for a dispute" and denying existing problems, the gaming community will get a chance to get a little better and cleaner.
If you do not, you will confirm our correctness every time.

[MomomiMomi]

That 's the problem. No matter how many hundreds of people talk about having a problem, it will be beneficial for you to deny it and say that "an isolated experience proves nothing."
This is called "depreciation." Depreciation is in your interest.

Do you want a piece of good advice?
Stop doing that right now. Perhaps if you stop devaluing, humming, make "dispute for a dispute" and denying existing problems, the gaming community will get a chance to get a little better and cleaner.
If you do not, you will confirm our correctness every time.

Nobody is denying that some people have negative experiences. What they are saying is that those experiences don't mean that the entirety of the system is bad. It does a lot of good. But nobody reports that because that's the norm.

[SoranRigel]

Nobody is denying that some people have negative experiences. What they are saying is that those experiences don't mean that the entirety of the system is bad. It does a lot of good. But nobody reports that because that's the norm.

We've already talked about a lot of alternative systems that work in other games.
Here we offered constructive solutions.
The system that generates bullying and toxicity should be eliminated.