The problem with the mentor system

[SoranRigel]

I really don't think it matters what icon it is. No matter what icon they pick it still holds meaning inside the game and jerks may still "farm" for it. But I agree it would be worth trying.

Was it my impression, or do you admit that "the reward for help" system is broken?

[hynaku]

And you can't even do that right.

How would you know since I don't know you and your no where in my database. Bet your one that just complains all the time. I'm not mentor for the rewards don't give care about them. I see far more none mentors being toxic and jerks than mentors being. Most on my server see helping new players. I only ran into couple that's been rude to others. Another thing one complain about not all mentors is pve and pvp mentors there crafting mentors.

[Packetdancer]

So, disclaimer here: I'm not a mentor, and I don't actively aspire to be one. You don't need a crown to be helpful, right?

But here's the thing...

But FF14 desperately needs a chat channel where someone can ask questions.

This. I cannot stress this enough.

People keep focusing on the dungeon experience of the mentor program, but honestly I feel like that's the less important part of it. In part because the dungeon side of things is the one where mentors—or even just helpfule players—can spot someone who might be struggling and offer help proactively; you can ask in Party chat, "Hey, do you mind if I offer one bit of clarifying advice on the fight?" and then when they say "Sure" mention that it can be easier if—for instance—you tank the final boss of Stone Vigil in the center of the arena and explain why. (I have not yet had someone say 'no' to the "Do you mind if I offer..." query, for whatever that's worth.)

But what I've found is that a number of sprouts don't feel like they have a good avenue to ask questions. And not just to ask questions, but to ask for active help. Not just "Can anyone tell me how to do this?", but "I'm having trouble running this particular dungeon, could someone come along and play guide?"

The NN is meant to be the former—the place to ask questions—and the crown is meant to be the same thing; if you see someone chilling by an aetheryte with the crown, you know they're theoretically open to being tapped and asked for help. But it doesn't seem to be working out entirely like that, for whatever reason.

For my part, I've made a cross-world linkshell on Primal; it started a couple of weeks ago as just a random linkshell of friends and people I've met when rolling through the game, but as it's proven the easiest way to coordinate handing off gear or giving a bit of post-run dungeon advice to someone on a different server who still have questions, various sprouts I've helped out have ended up on it.

And what I've discovered is that it's kind of turning into a de-facto tiny part-time newbie network; newer players can ask things questions on that CWLS and the more experienced ones will answer them -- even if those questions are things like "I'm having a lot of trouble with this content, would anyone be willing to run it with me?"

At least two have said that having that linkshell as a sort of 'life preserver' has made their gaming experience a lot less frustrating and a lot more fun. I think the sprouts need something like that, and those who haven't found a good/active FC—or just who have questions when no one in their FC is on—need one that's global.

If the issue with the NN is that people think the criteria for mentors aren't the right ones or aren't finding the appropriate mentors, then maybe the solution is to rework the criteria. But I don't think completely burning the Newbie Network and mentoring system to the ground is necessarily the best course, because then sprouts end up without anywhere they can reach out with questions if they don't happen to have a really helpful FC.

I already hypothesized one possible alternative, back in one of the other various threads about this; it can be found at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing still. I am under no illusions that it's flawless—or even the right path—but it seems to me that there are still good aspects to the mentor system that should be preserved if there were ever to be changes.

(And of course, SquareEnix is under no obligation to listen to any of us, regardless of what happens in this thread or what anyone suggests, so a lot of this is probably just folks blowing off steam...)

[SoranRigel]

I'm very interested in what kind of help could be offered by the mentor who now was putting AOE under other players and breaking the mechanics in Arboretum (hard).
Oh, yes, it's just an "one-time experience."

[EaMett]

I'm very interested in what kind of help could be offered by the mentor who now was putting AOE under other players and breaking the mechanics in Arboretum (hard).
Oh, yes, it's just an "one-time experience."

Petty.

Mentors are allowed to learn classes and tunnel vision & make mistakes like everyone else. Mentors are allowed to pull fast and/or big like everyone else. Mentors are allowed to be distracted like everyone, they're allowed to not know everything about the game like everyone else, they're allowed to ask questions like everyone else, they're allowed to be clueless at times just like, you guessed it, everyone else.

In fact this may surprise a lot of people in here but mentors are regular players. And the only purpose the mentor system serves is to allow players to know where and who to turn to if they have a question. There's no guaranty attached to it, the mentor may not know, they may not even feel like answering you if they're busy with something else. This isn't toxic nor is it a failure of the system.

Yes mentors are expected to uphold SE values somewhat more than regular players and I've yet to see any evidence of the contrary (systemic), especially when pit against the behavior of non mentors as a means of comparison. The burden of proof is a thing and falls onto those challenging the status quo. I've also seen a fair share of hasty generalization, non sequitur, and strawman fallacies in this thread coming from those claiming the mentor system is broken.
Enough to stand by what I've said before.

Make suggestions on how to improve the system all you want, it'll benefit everyone. Just don't go making dogmatic claims ad misericordiam

[Miste]

Was it my impression, or do you admit that "the reward for help" system is broken?

I didn't say "the reward for help system is broken", so I think you misunderstood. I was talking about the crown icon being changed into something else instead. As I said multiple times now SE could try that.

Rewards in the system I don't know if it was a good idea, but that is just my on the fly opinion. I don't have much strong opinion on it either way, as long as mentors are polite, kind, and help people clear content the reward being there is fine. That might not always be the case though, not enough information to know how much problems it causes.

I'm very interested in what kind of help could be offered by the mentor who now was putting AOE under other players and breaking the mechanics in Arboretum (hard).
Oh, yes, it's just an "one-time experience."

This is very very wrong.

Human beings are not perfect. It is impossible for someone to do everything perfectly. Expecting mentors to be 100% perfect at the game, every encounter, every dungeon, every boss, every job rotation, every mechanic?

No one on this planet is perfect. Your expectations are way too high, to the point of ridiculousness.

[SoranRigel]

Mentors are allowed to learn classes and tunnel vision & make mistakes like everyone else. Mentors are allowed to pull fast and/or big like everyone else. Mentors are allowed to be distracted like everyone, they're allowed to not know everything about the game like everyone else, they're allowed to ask questions like everyone else, they're allowed to be clueless at times just like, you guessed it, everyone else.

...Mentors are allowed not to know mechanics like everyone else...
Wait a minute, but aren't mentors "experienced players" who "can teach"?
Why are they needed if they do not help, but harm, make elementary mistakes and break mechanics in far from the most difficult duties?
This player had a crown over his head. I can 't figure out what he put it on if he doesn't know the simplest things.

[MomomiMomi]

...Mentors are allowed not to know mechanics like everyone else...
Wait a minute, but aren't mentors "experienced players" who "can teach"?
Why are they needed if they do not help, but harm, make elementary mistakes and break mechanics in far from the most difficult duties?
This player had a crown over his head. I can 't figure out what he put it on if he doesn't know the simplest things.

Found the problem. It's your expectation of mentors that is the issue, not the mentor system.

[SoranRigel]

Found the problem. It's your expectation of mentors that is the issue, not the mentor system.

Really?
Ok, let 's go back to the official definition of "mentor":

Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers. To facilitate their assistance, mentors will gain access to a special chat channel as well as a means to easily register for duties and trials with new players.

As a mentor you are expected to actively perform the following:

1. Provide gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players.
2. Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
3. Invite new adventurers to the Novice Network and answer their queries in the chat channel.

In connection with this definition (sorry, it 's not "my expectations") I ask the question again: what can these people teach with crowns on their heads if they don 't know the simplest game mechanics?
These people became mentors because the system allows them to do so.
Because they go to farm recommendations to purchase a beautiful badge and winnings.
Not to help.

[EaMett]

Really?
Ok, let 's go back to the official definition of "mentor":

In connection with this definition (sorry, it 's not "my expectations") I ask the question again: what can these people teach with crowns on their heads if they don 't know the simplest game mechanics?
These people became mentors because the system allows them to do so.
Because they go to farm recommendations to purchase a beautiful badge and winnings.
Not to help.

You can be a mentor in full gear on an unfamiliar class and be tunnel visioning so hard you miss mechanics. Not only can this be a thing but I'm pretty sure every mentor and player knows exactly what I'm talking about, first hand.

I personally can't BRD for the life of me. Keeping my eyes on the procs = eating mechanics consistently. I still enjoy playing it and won't stop because some elitist expects a certain level of play out of me because I'm a mentor. (see what I did there)