5.1 NIN slowed down and uninteresting

[Ryaz]

Always love the gaming community. Lots of people saying original version has problems, needs to be fixed. SE fixes it. Lots of people now saying the old version was better.

If there's something I've learned, no matter what developers do, they can never win.

[Shurrikhan]

Always love the gaming community. Lots of people saying original version has problems, needs to be fixed. SE fixes it. Lots of people now saying the old version was better.

If there's something I've learned, no matter what developers do, they can never win.

If I ask you to fix my arm because it's in pain, and you replace it with a, albeit rather functional, pirate hook, should I be happy about it?

If they had fixed Ninja, I'd have been happy. But as one might normally expect, replacing it with something that shares its names and animations, but little of its playflow, isn't going to have that result.

It was faintly undertuned (performing just under DRG, which at the time performed barely at all under SAM) and excessively punished latency. Fix those and you fix NIN. Remove NIN combos, the majority of its oGCD usage, and a quarter of its APM, and you bring it back, sure, but lobotomized.

[Lastelli]

If I ask you to fix my arm because it's in pain, and you replace it with a, albeit rather functional, pirate hook, should I be happy about it?

If they had fixed Ninja, I'd have been happy. But as one might normally expect, replacing it with something that shares its names and animations, but little of its playflow, isn't going to have that result.

It was faintly undertuned (performing just under DRG, which at the time performed barely at all under SAM) and excessively punished latency. Fix those and you fix NIN. Remove NIN combos, the majority of its oGCD usage, and a quarter of its APM, and you bring it back, sure, but lobotomized.

People should really stop overreacting though.

It only takes a 10 seconds search on fflogs or a few minutes of testing to see that NIN'S APM barely changed after the rework. The current NIN is way better than before. At least it's a functional job. The problem is that 3/4 of its gameplay is a 1-2-3 combo and that's it.

Tbh I really miss HW NIN... I miss mutilate and the 2-step shadow fang combo. I miss the complexity we had before SB...but all jobs were butchered and dumbed down, so it's not a job specific thing.

[Kleeya]

A more fitting example would be that your arm was broken, that the doctors failed to fix it, but did successfully so for hundreds of other people. And that you are now asking for all of those who were healed correctly to be back to the time when their arm was broken, just because it has become worse for you XD

[Shurrikhan]

It only takes a 10 seconds search on fflogs or a few minutes of testing to see that NIN'S APM barely changed after the rework. The current NIN is way better than before. At least it's a functional job. The problem is that 3/4 of its gameplay is a 1-2-3 combo and that's it.

Tbh I really miss HW NIN... I miss mutilate and the 2-step shadow fang combo. I miss the complexity we had before SB...but all jobs were butchered and dumbed down, so it's not a job specific thing.

As someone playing at sub-100 ms, the job was entirely "functional" for me prior to those changes, but also more enjoyable (aside from the TCJ change, which just feels great no matter which version one might prefer). That wasn't enough for me to be happy with it, as I realized (especially with every even minor lag spike) that it was a precarious situation at best, and as a result I've suggested changes to make it less ping-punishing since ARR, but it certainly didn't need the level of simplification it received.

Also, to be fair, perception of apm is going to matter a whole lot more to apm than the numbers alone. If your combos no longer require any mental processing, each bit of apm among them will most likely feel less exciting. And then there's the matter of variance. SB DRK had very nearly the apm of HW DRK, and yet it felt comparatively plodding and unexciting to many veterans just because there were fewer things to watch out for and its oGCD apm was all seemingly funneled to one skill.

[Solowing]

A more fitting example would be that your arm was broken, that the doctors failed to fix it, but did successfully so for hundreds of other people. And that you are now asking for all of those who were healed correctly to be back to the time when their arm was broken, just because it has become worse for you XD

What? You made Ninja viable in dps by stripping of it class identity? I fell in love with ninja due to its fast paced spontaneous nature since they've released it, stuck by the class for ARR, HW, and SB and the start of SHB. and now they strip it of any complexity, slowed it down, and its oGCD nature was neutered. But because the damage was fixxed, and people can play it on sub-par internet speeds now means the class was fixed? Dispite the class not longer have many of its signature traits?

[Solowing]

Took them almost over 3 expansions to finally make drastic change to ninja. Probably wont see much fixing anytime soon. I do hope outside of trick attack, ninja can have slightly more active rotation. How about making ninjutsu part of combo with combo potency and finisher? And drop the potency on ninjutsu but lower the cd on mudras recharge time or kass recast time. I'm sure people would like to cast even more ninjutsus.

It needs to go back to oGCD its just too clunky now, and it separates itself away from the combo system outside of benefiting from Trick Attack

[Ryaz]

What? You made Ninja viable in dps by stripping of it class identity? I fell in love with ninja due to its fast paced spontaneous nature since they've released it, stuck by the class for ARR, HW, and SB and the start of SHB. and now they strip it of any complexity, slowed it down, and its oGCD nature was neutered. But because the damage was fixxed, and people can play it on sub-par internet speeds now means the class was fixed? Dispite the class not longer have many of its signature traits?

Except they didn't remove any of the class identity? Yeah, its slowed down a bit, but it is still a job about using Trick Attack and Ninjutsus. Nothing has changed on that front. You still need to keep up your Huton. You still need to hit your TA window. Ninja's whole class identity wasn't just apm. All of it's original traits are still there, just minorly slowed down.

[Solowing]

Except they didn't remove any of the class identity? Yeah, its slowed down a bit, but it is still a job about using Trick Attack and Ninjutsus. Nothing has changed on that front. You still need to keep up your Huton. You still need to hit your TA window. Ninja's whole class identity wasn't just apm. All of it's original traits are still there, just minorly slowed down.

So again, was weaving, not removed? Yes
Did its complexity get removed? Yes
Was it slowed down? Yes

Weaving as a playstyle, is gone, we play like a melee dancer now..

Complexity was removed, we had the different timed cds had to mix things up and try to line abilities up for the next trick attack, that is no longer a thing, everything lines up to trick attack now. Ninjutsu also became relegated to mainly Trick attack usage, if Trick attack isn't up, why use ninjutsu? Shuriken prior to the rework got used because it was a quick ninjutsu before jumping back into my combos, now? Why use it? It does less damage then Raiton why not use Raiton? Because ill just wait for Trick Attack to use it since it benefits from trick attacks. Hell Shuriken shouldn't exist anymore because it doesn't have use anymore!

So yea, the class had is identity removed.. Im glad you enjoy it now, but this isnt the class that i fell for when they released it. Its slower, less engaging and requires less thought to play

[Wiccan692015]

Hello im not a MAIN NINJA but i Do have a character who Mains a Level 80 Ninja if that makes sense, i EXCEL at ninja and i still think they are pretty fast, my one question is are you using your Huton Mudra? because when thats active combo buildups are much faster. I agree that what they did to shadow fang was wrong. but i only really use it on bosses, certain mudras have certain uses, in certain situations, without Huton gauge up you move slower than molasses so make sure to start every fight but putting it up, you can sustain the gauge by using your Armor Crush combo or your Hakke Mujinsatsu combo depending on if you are in need of AOE or Single Target damage .