5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Khimer]

Buddy, there was nothing special about triple fell cleaving in HW. It wasn't complex by a long shot. In 4.1, the gauge management wasn't "big brain," it was needlessly convoluted, and the pay off wasn't anything to write home about when it barely outdps'd PLD. You say it was complex when it was doing its highest DPS, but in fact it had much higher relative DPS in the raid tiers before and after.

The fact that you say it was needlessly convoluted already means that it was complex enough for you. All they did was expand further on the gauge management from HW and that was perfect design. As for the "pay off" simple potency buffs would've been enough, but they had to go and butcher's block warrior into this SB pld clone with almost to none gauge management, which i guess was a precursor to all the job reworks in the future. But HEY at least they gave us bright colors and huge numbers to distract from that shitty design( i can see it worked for you). Of course tanks are balanced now, cause they all play the same, im surprised GNB was made with at least some-what decent playstyle.

But hey, keep deluding yourself into thinking WAR was this MLG high skill ceiling job. It'll entertain me longer.

No class in this game is MLG esports ready job once you hit the dummy long enough. What i said was: WAR used to be the most complex tank out of 3 and it was rewarded with highest dps among those tanks. I now understand why you support this "stupid" class design since you don't even bother to process information once you read it. Can i ask you to pwease abstain from sharing your opinion on WAR forums, as it is pretty obvious that to you peak tank design was ARR PLD and people like you are the reason WAR still hasn't recieved any changes that so many warrior mains wanted since 4.2. TY :3

[Hierro]

The fact that you say it was needlessly convoluted already means that it was complex enough for you. All they did was expand further on the gauge management from HW and that was perfect design. As for the "pay off" simple potency buffs would've been enough, but they had to go and butcher's block warrior into this SB pld clone with almost to none gauge management, which i guess was a precursor to all the job reworks in the future. But HEY at least they gave us bright colors and huge numbers to distract from that shitty design( i can see it worked for you). Of course tanks are balanced now, cause they all play the same, im surprised GNB was made with at least some-what decent playstyle.

No class in this game is MLG esports ready job once you hit the dummy long enough. What i said was: WAR used to be the most complex tank out of 3 and it was rewarded with highest dps among those tanks. I now understand why you support this "stupid" class design since you don't even bother to process information once you read it. Can i ask you to pwease abstain from sharing your opinion on WAR forums, as it is pretty obvious that to you peak tank design was ARR PLD and people like you are the reason WAR still hasn't recieved any changes that so many warrior mains wanted since 4.2. TY :3

I absolutely love this back peddling! Was it strong, or did it need potency buffs? Which is it? Again, HW had no such "gauge management." It was stacks, and all you need was spend 5 of them on FC every single time. It's clear that you'll forever cling onto the illusion that 4.1 berserk/IR rotations were the pinnacle of complex, rich, involved gameplay (nevermind HW DRK existed).

My time on WAR during 4.1 was fairly successful, so I can assure you that "complexity" wasn't my issue. I don't think you could say the same, so I don't know how much of a WAR main you could even call yourself by your own standards.

Does anyone one want to point out no WAR in thier right mind is going to be waiting a whole minute to IC when there is a passive that reduces its cooldown by 5 secs for every FC or IC you do? No? Or the fact that WAR is also the one tank that gets the least out of party buffs?

Seeing as I've been having a lot of success by ICing twice during every minute for such appropriate buffs (still using FC all the time, not overcapping on infuriate), I think I've been in my right mind this entire time. But hey, the proof's in the pudding.

[Khimer]

I absolutely love this back peddling! Was it strong, or did it need potency buffs? Which is it? Again, HW had no such "gauge management." It was stacks, and all you need was spend 5 of them on FC every single time. It's clear that you'll forever cling onto the illusion that 4.1 berserk/IR rotations were the pinnacle of complex, rich, involved gameplay (nevermind HW DRK existed).

What do you mean back peddling? I never said that 4.1 was war's highest dps, i was referring to HW when it came to war's dps and complexity and i was highly praising 4.1 for its pure complexity. Also they had stacks of wrath and abandon which got changed into gauge which means exactly what i said, "expanding" on that aspect. It blows my mind that you accept HW DRK as rich and involved gameplay(it means there's still hope for you) and yet so aggressively defend WAR'S current design. Are you just griefing warrior at this point?

The thing i suggested was an ultimate compromise: just get rid of that stoopid DCrit on warrior so WAR can benefit from party buffs and have decent melds without scuffed crit scaling, it would be nice to have something to play with outside of IR, but i guess that's just too much to ask from devs.

[Hierro]

What do you mean back peddling? I never said that 4.1 was war's highest dps, i was referring to HW when it came to war's dps and complexity and i was highly praising 4.1 for its pure complexity. Also they had stacks of wrath and abandon which got changed into gauge which means exactly what i said, "expanding" on that aspect. It blows my mind that you accept HW DRK as rich and involved gameplay(it means there's still hope for you) and yet so aggressively defend WAR'S current design. Are you just griefing warrior at this point?

The thing i suggested was an ultimate compromise: just get rid of that stoopid DCrit on warrior so WAR can benefit from party buffs and have decent melds without scuffed crit scaling, it would be nice to have something to play with outside of IR, but i guess that's just too much to ask from devs.

I actually feel that HW DRK had some good ideas, but it was too unfocused and that SB DRK actually improved on it in every way-- but that's not my point. My point is that whatever sort of complexity WAR might have had, it's absolutely dwarfed by any iteration of DRK. It just wasn't the most complex tank. That's not a bad thing, however, because simplicity can suit personal taste. The whole point is that if you want something more complex, there are other tanks for your purpose. If someone wants something more active, they can play GNB or something. And if we want something simple, we can play WAR.

And that's okay, because that's what options are for.

[Khimer]

I actually feel that HW DRK had some good ideas, but it was too unfocused and that SB DRK actually improved on it in every way-- but that's not my point. My point is that whatever sort of complexity WAR might have had, it's absolutely dwarfed by any iteration of DRK. It just wasn't the most complex tank. That's not a bad thing, however, because simplicity can suit personal taste. The whole point is that if you want something more complex, there are other tanks for your purpose. If someone wants something more active, they can play GNB or something. And if we want something simple, we can play WAR.

And that's okay, because that's what options are for.

I get what you're saying, but i don't really agree with it. It's not a good outlook on stuff. Cause usually for other people playstyle is not the only thing they look at when it comes to jobs, they also consider lore, aesthetics, etc. And they can't just go "Welp, they screwed up my favourite job, i guess its time to switch. Whop, they screwed up my new substitution job, i guess i'll switch again" and like that every time when dev teams comes up with smthn "experimental" to put it lightly. When all they needed to do is just listen to those who loved the job they mained and who knew what they were talking about. But that's more of feely type of thing and enjoyment is goddamn subjective. I doubt anyone can win in topics like this, even now there are a lot of DRKs that enjoy Shb iteration and yet there are also a lot of threads on this forum that wish to go back. If they don't change anything for WARs in 5.2 then i and a lot of others will do just as you said and stick to GNB again this tier. Which isn't bad, but still. Crap.

[ArianeEwah]

WAR used to be the most complex tank out of 3 and it was rewarded with highest dps among those tanks.

WAR was never the most complex tank in any expansion. It had its 'complexity peek' during HW due to the stack mechanic and you had to know when you have to spend them, but that's pretty much it.
DRK was the most complex during HW and SB. Not only due to its fast-paced playstyle, but also because of the effects of BW and blood price. From BW you gained mana (and blood) with GCD, oGCD and AAs, and BP was quite the gain if used correctly in dungeons, you could become the 'undying tank'. It was the most difficult, yet most rewarding tank. It had many gimmicks, was way more difficult than the other 2 tanks, and thus was pretty exiting. Unfortunately, DRK was never able to beat WAR in terms of DPS, not in HW nor in SB, and onto this day it's still the lowest in DPS of all tanks (not by a big margin, but still..).

The WAR burst stayed pretty much the same during HW and SB 4.1, it was easy to figure out, and easy to optimize... then SE took that away in 4.2, and since then the skill ceiling curve just went downhill.
Yes, it was awesome at first when you saw all your attacks critDH, and yes, they 'fixed' the 60s dmg buff 'problem', they 'fixed' the burst problem... but for the cost of complexity, flexibility and optimization options. It's so straight forward, it has become mind-numbing. Since ShB they even removed the stance dance, and the gauge crit rate gain, the last bit of complexity and gimmick mechanics left on the job - gone. Now our only concern is how many 'big hits' you get into a 6s window... such intuitive decision-making.

im surprised GNB was made with at least some-what decent playstyle.

I am not surprised in the slightest. GNB has gotten all the 'fun' elements from previous tanks - stacks, it's fast-paced, has a strong 20s buff window, a strong dot, highest dps... you could even say it has the most diverse combos. GNB might not be as complex as HW DRK used to be, yet I can imagine that this job is played by old HW DRK mains the most because they resemble each other so much.

Tho, I have to agree on at least one point with you:

just get rid of that stoopid DCrit on warrior

one of the dumbest 'gimmick' ever introduced, and they made it tenfold on WAR...

[Khimer]

WAR was never the most complex tank in any expansion. It had its 'complexity peek' during HW due to the stack mechanic and you had to know when you have to spend them, but that's pretty much it.
DRK was the most complex during HW and SB. Not only due to its fast-paced playstyle, but also because of the effects of BW and blood price. From BW you gained mana (and blood) with GCD, oGCD and AAs, and BP was quite the gain if used correctly in dungeons, you could become the 'undying tank'. It was the most difficult, yet most rewarding tank. It had many gimmicks, was way more difficult than the other 2 tanks, and thus was pretty exiting. Unfortunately, DRK was never able to beat WAR in terms of DPS, not in HW nor in SB, and onto this day it's still the lowest in DPS of all tanks (not by a big margin, but still..).

The WAR burst stayed pretty much the same during HW and SB 4.1, it was easy to figure out, and easy to optimize... then SE took that away in 4.2, and since then the skill ceiling curve just went downhill.
Yes, it was awesome at first when you saw all your attacks critDH, and yes, they 'fixed' the 60s dmg buff 'problem', they 'fixed' the burst problem... but for the cost of complexity, flexibility and optimization options. It's so straight forward, it has become mind-numbing. Since ShB they even removed the stance dance, and the gauge crit rate gain, the last bit of complexity and gimmick mechanics left on the job - gone. Now our only concern is how many 'big hits' you get into a 6s window... such intuitive decision-making.

The point of my post was not the competition of which tank was the most complex in the past(which is still pretty subjective topic as i found hw drk much easier to optimize than war), but to point out how war got severely dumbed down in with its current iteration compared to before. And from your post it seems that you mostly agree with it. Updooted for making good points too. At this point the topic has been drained completely, there's nothing more to add.

I am not surprised in the slightest. GNB has gotten all the 'fun' elements from previous tanks - stacks, it's fast-paced, has a strong 20s buff window, a strong dot, highest dps... you could even say it has the most diverse combos. GNB might not be as complex as HW DRK used to be, yet I can imagine that this job is played by old HW DRK mains the most because they resemble each other so much.

And by surprised at GNB i meant it was unexpected that dev team somehow managed to create a good tank from scratch as if they still got it in them, but at the same time continue to screw over existing tanks in playstyle.

[Danelo]

And by surprised at GNB i meant it was unexpected that dev team somehow managed to create a good tank from scratch as if they still got it in them, but at the same time continue to screw over existing tanks in playstyle.

I think some are giving SE too much in props here. Aside from the new weapon itself, which is only new to ffxiv, and the continuation mechanic, devs still ripped from other tanks overall concepts for gnb. Fast playstyle from DRK. Higher/est damage zerker idea from WAR. Maybe that’s why some feel like tanks are boring and themeless versions of their former selves.

[ArianeEwah]

to point out how war got severely dumbed down in with its current iteration compared to before. And from your post it seems that you mostly agree with it. Updooted for making good points too.

In that case I completely agree indeed, thanks.

I still want to add to one point - flexibility, with the focus on rotation/gear. Currently, WAR's rotation requires a GCD of 2.38-2.35s. During HW and SB we could go slower. With the changes to Infuriate (got an extra charge) and the overall gauge generation (e.g. no butcher's block) the 'perfect' rotation is fixed, and there is no room for any variation. Should we go slower, we have to spend gauge on Onslaught, thus losing the Infuriate train gain, and desync on IC which results in a major damage loss (correct me if I am wrong here, and we would overcap on Infuriate anyway). And personally, I dislike the clipping/desync of Upheaval.
On GNB I can use different, legit playstyles - slow (2.42), fast (2.4-2.38), really slow (Heavy Hitter - 2.47-2.45) - DRK could also go from fast to slow, and vice versa (if there weren't any BW issues), PLD mostly doesn't care about SkS.
Only Warrior is the least flexible here... also doesn't accept DH melds... despite DRK being a WAR rip-off, it doesn't have those issues.

No, it isn't, especially not when you look at aDPS.

Warrior is above Dark Knight in rDPS - or was, most stopped playing savage months ago. As I said, the difference ain't big - mostly less than 100 DPS.
I agree, WAR loses in aDPS once you get party buffs. Tho, this is no surprise, WAR doesn't benefit from almost half the party buffs available in this game, and unfortunately those are also the most common, too (chain, litany, voice).