5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Khimer]

Personally I absolutely don't miss early SB warrior. Having to align every single GCD was a major pain. IR change made warrior feel how I always felt "fighter" classes should be - intuitive and straightforward. Sure, dmg outside of burst is too low and I wouldn't mind another combo (plz give back BB animation!), but I'd really prefer WAR to stay simple and relaxing job that it is now - after all there are more busy ones, so let people who like this kind of playstyle have one "stupid" class.

People who like this "stupid" class playstyle should just play other jobs, after all there are many easy ones, WAR was supposed to be complex for its high dps(when it used to be high), so let people who enjoy complex tanks have its class back. That 4.2 patch was a major hit in enjoyability for actual warrior mains, trust me, because of that they all play gnb now and just silently miss old WAR. Now i just accepted that SE will never bring old warrior back, with that in mind the only thing they can do to fix it is: 1. Increase potency just by a little bit. 2. Change IR to just damage buff so we can have decent melds and decent crit scaling, and also benefit from raid buffs. 3. Returning crit per gauge would make it a little more interesting on the optimization side of the job.

[Hierro]

SB 4.0 war was definitely not fun. But ShB is not fun either. I thought War was pretty complete by the end of SB, and it should have just stayed that way. NF, IC/CS/New Infuriate Mechanic, is terrible and I would much rather get old Inner Beast/Steel Cyclone back. If SE wanted war to have more burst outside IR window, they should have buffed Upheaval, instead of adding IC. And I hate the idea of not using the most powerful attack inside the IR window. Thematically it feels off to me. And NF having a party target requirement when SB war could just pop into tank stance any time for IB or Steel Cyclone heals is really a sucky change.

How can you honestly say 4.2 WAR was complete? It lacked a way to support off-tanks, and that was addressed with NF. It lacked a way to take advantage of buffs that came up every 1 minute interval, that was addressed with IC. The infuriate mechanic is something that keeps WAR interesting without becoming a burden. I can't recall a situation where I couldn't IR on cooldown because I'd overcap on infuriate's cooldown, because I have the sense to use infuriate when needed!

Buffing upheaval would have the effect of making WAR more punishing to play since it has a natural tendency to drift over time, eventually resulting in falling off your IR window or forgoing a use to remedy the drift. IC has the inherent benefit of being on a charged system. You go onto praise inner beast, but you have to keep in mind that in practice it was seldom used outside of prog, and that even then you're talking about a defensive buff that was tied to a GCD. Neither applies to NF, thankfully!

WAR was supposed to be complex

It was never complex.

[Khimer]

It was never complex.

With its big brain gauge management in 4.1 it was pretty much the most complex tank out of all 3, and that was true even in HW, buddy. But you seem like the kind of guy who mained PLD all his life and jumped on the WAR train once it got piss easy to outdps other tanks with just 1 button, or you DID play WAR before that and were just happy to land one FC in berserk window, that's why you never saw it as a complex job. And whether you feel it was easy or not before, it is pretty much undisputed that it was dumbed down by A LOT after 4.2.

[Hierro]

With its big brain gauge management in 4.1 it was pretty much the most complex tank out of all 3, and that was true even in HW, buddy. But you seem like the kind of guy who mained PLD all his life and jumped on the WAR train once it got piss easy to outdps other tanks with just 1 button, or you DID play WAR before that and were just happy to land one FC in berserk window, that's why you never saw it as a complex job. And whether you feel it was easy or not before, it is pretty much undisputed that it was dumbed down by A LOT after 4.2.

Buddy, there was nothing special about triple fell cleaving in HW. It wasn't complex by a long shot. In 4.1, the gauge management wasn't "big brain," it was needlessly convoluted, and the pay off wasn't anything to write home about when it barely outdps'd PLD. You say it was complex when it was doing its highest DPS, but in fact it had much higher relative DPS in the raid tiers before and after.

But hey, keep deluding yourself into thinking WAR was this MLG high skill ceiling job. It'll entertain me longer.

[Khimer]

Buddy, there was nothing special about triple fell cleaving in HW. It wasn't complex by a long shot. In 4.1, the gauge management wasn't "big brain," it was needlessly convoluted, and the pay off wasn't anything to write home about when it barely outdps'd PLD. You say it was complex when it was doing its highest DPS, but in fact it had much higher relative DPS in the raid tiers before and after.

The fact that you say it was needlessly convoluted already means that it was complex enough for you. All they did was expand further on the gauge management from HW and that was perfect design. As for the "pay off" simple potency buffs would've been enough, but they had to go and butcher's block warrior into this SB pld clone with almost to none gauge management, which i guess was a precursor to all the job reworks in the future. But HEY at least they gave us bright colors and huge numbers to distract from that shitty design( i can see it worked for you). Of course tanks are balanced now, cause they all play the same, im surprised GNB was made with at least some-what decent playstyle.

But hey, keep deluding yourself into thinking WAR was this MLG high skill ceiling job. It'll entertain me longer.

No class in this game is MLG esports ready job once you hit the dummy long enough. What i said was: WAR used to be the most complex tank out of 3 and it was rewarded with highest dps among those tanks. I now understand why you support this "stupid" class design since you don't even bother to process information once you read it. Can i ask you to pwease abstain from sharing your opinion on WAR forums, as it is pretty obvious that to you peak tank design was ARR PLD and people like you are the reason WAR still hasn't recieved any changes that so many warrior mains wanted since 4.2. TY :3

[Hierro]

The fact that you say it was needlessly convoluted already means that it was complex enough for you. All they did was expand further on the gauge management from HW and that was perfect design. As for the "pay off" simple potency buffs would've been enough, but they had to go and butcher's block warrior into this SB pld clone with almost to none gauge management, which i guess was a precursor to all the job reworks in the future. But HEY at least they gave us bright colors and huge numbers to distract from that shitty design( i can see it worked for you). Of course tanks are balanced now, cause they all play the same, im surprised GNB was made with at least some-what decent playstyle.

No class in this game is MLG esports ready job once you hit the dummy long enough. What i said was: WAR used to be the most complex tank out of 3 and it was rewarded with highest dps among those tanks. I now understand why you support this "stupid" class design since you don't even bother to process information once you read it. Can i ask you to pwease abstain from sharing your opinion on WAR forums, as it is pretty obvious that to you peak tank design was ARR PLD and people like you are the reason WAR still hasn't recieved any changes that so many warrior mains wanted since 4.2. TY :3

I absolutely love this back peddling! Was it strong, or did it need potency buffs? Which is it? Again, HW had no such "gauge management." It was stacks, and all you need was spend 5 of them on FC every single time. It's clear that you'll forever cling onto the illusion that 4.1 berserk/IR rotations were the pinnacle of complex, rich, involved gameplay (nevermind HW DRK existed).

My time on WAR during 4.1 was fairly successful, so I can assure you that "complexity" wasn't my issue. I don't think you could say the same, so I don't know how much of a WAR main you could even call yourself by your own standards.

Does anyone one want to point out no WAR in thier right mind is going to be waiting a whole minute to IC when there is a passive that reduces its cooldown by 5 secs for every FC or IC you do? No? Or the fact that WAR is also the one tank that gets the least out of party buffs?

Seeing as I've been having a lot of success by ICing twice during every minute for such appropriate buffs (still using FC all the time, not overcapping on infuriate), I think I've been in my right mind this entire time. But hey, the proof's in the pudding.

[Khimer]

I absolutely love this back peddling! Was it strong, or did it need potency buffs? Which is it? Again, HW had no such "gauge management." It was stacks, and all you need was spend 5 of them on FC every single time. It's clear that you'll forever cling onto the illusion that 4.1 berserk/IR rotations were the pinnacle of complex, rich, involved gameplay (nevermind HW DRK existed).

What do you mean back peddling? I never said that 4.1 was war's highest dps, i was referring to HW when it came to war's dps and complexity and i was highly praising 4.1 for its pure complexity. Also they had stacks of wrath and abandon which got changed into gauge which means exactly what i said, "expanding" on that aspect. It blows my mind that you accept HW DRK as rich and involved gameplay(it means there's still hope for you) and yet so aggressively defend WAR'S current design. Are you just griefing warrior at this point?

The thing i suggested was an ultimate compromise: just get rid of that stoopid DCrit on warrior so WAR can benefit from party buffs and have decent melds without scuffed crit scaling, it would be nice to have something to play with outside of IR, but i guess that's just too much to ask from devs.

[ArianeEwah]

WAR used to be the most complex tank out of 3 and it was rewarded with highest dps among those tanks.

WAR was never the most complex tank in any expansion. It had its 'complexity peek' during HW due to the stack mechanic and you had to know when you have to spend them, but that's pretty much it.
DRK was the most complex during HW and SB. Not only due to its fast-paced playstyle, but also because of the effects of BW and blood price. From BW you gained mana (and blood) with GCD, oGCD and AAs, and BP was quite the gain if used correctly in dungeons, you could become the 'undying tank'. It was the most difficult, yet most rewarding tank. It had many gimmicks, was way more difficult than the other 2 tanks, and thus was pretty exiting. Unfortunately, DRK was never able to beat WAR in terms of DPS, not in HW nor in SB, and onto this day it's still the lowest in DPS of all tanks (not by a big margin, but still..).

The WAR burst stayed pretty much the same during HW and SB 4.1, it was easy to figure out, and easy to optimize... then SE took that away in 4.2, and since then the skill ceiling curve just went downhill.
Yes, it was awesome at first when you saw all your attacks critDH, and yes, they 'fixed' the 60s dmg buff 'problem', they 'fixed' the burst problem... but for the cost of complexity, flexibility and optimization options. It's so straight forward, it has become mind-numbing. Since ShB they even removed the stance dance, and the gauge crit rate gain, the last bit of complexity and gimmick mechanics left on the job - gone. Now our only concern is how many 'big hits' you get into a 6s window... such intuitive decision-making.

im surprised GNB was made with at least some-what decent playstyle.

I am not surprised in the slightest. GNB has gotten all the 'fun' elements from previous tanks - stacks, it's fast-paced, has a strong 20s buff window, a strong dot, highest dps... you could even say it has the most diverse combos. GNB might not be as complex as HW DRK used to be, yet I can imagine that this job is played by old HW DRK mains the most because they resemble each other so much.

Tho, I have to agree on at least one point with you:

just get rid of that stoopid DCrit on warrior

one of the dumbest 'gimmick' ever introduced, and they made it tenfold on WAR...

[Khimer]

WAR was never the most complex tank in any expansion. It had its 'complexity peek' during HW due to the stack mechanic and you had to know when you have to spend them, but that's pretty much it.
DRK was the most complex during HW and SB. Not only due to its fast-paced playstyle, but also because of the effects of BW and blood price. From BW you gained mana (and blood) with GCD, oGCD and AAs, and BP was quite the gain if used correctly in dungeons, you could become the 'undying tank'. It was the most difficult, yet most rewarding tank. It had many gimmicks, was way more difficult than the other 2 tanks, and thus was pretty exiting. Unfortunately, DRK was never able to beat WAR in terms of DPS, not in HW nor in SB, and onto this day it's still the lowest in DPS of all tanks (not by a big margin, but still..).

The WAR burst stayed pretty much the same during HW and SB 4.1, it was easy to figure out, and easy to optimize... then SE took that away in 4.2, and since then the skill ceiling curve just went downhill.
Yes, it was awesome at first when you saw all your attacks critDH, and yes, they 'fixed' the 60s dmg buff 'problem', they 'fixed' the burst problem... but for the cost of complexity, flexibility and optimization options. It's so straight forward, it has become mind-numbing. Since ShB they even removed the stance dance, and the gauge crit rate gain, the last bit of complexity and gimmick mechanics left on the job - gone. Now our only concern is how many 'big hits' you get into a 6s window... such intuitive decision-making.

The point of my post was not the competition of which tank was the most complex in the past(which is still pretty subjective topic as i found hw drk much easier to optimize than war), but to point out how war got severely dumbed down in with its current iteration compared to before. And from your post it seems that you mostly agree with it. Updooted for making good points too. At this point the topic has been drained completely, there's nothing more to add.

I am not surprised in the slightest. GNB has gotten all the 'fun' elements from previous tanks - stacks, it's fast-paced, has a strong 20s buff window, a strong dot, highest dps... you could even say it has the most diverse combos. GNB might not be as complex as HW DRK used to be, yet I can imagine that this job is played by old HW DRK mains the most because they resemble each other so much.

And by surprised at GNB i meant it was unexpected that dev team somehow managed to create a good tank from scratch as if they still got it in them, but at the same time continue to screw over existing tanks in playstyle.

[BarretOblivion]

How can you honestly say 4.2 WAR was complete? It lacked a way to support off-tanks, and that was addressed with NF. It lacked a way to take advantage of buffs that came up every 1 minute interval, that was addressed with IC. The infuriate mechanic is something that keeps WAR interesting without becoming a burden. I can't recall a situation where I couldn't IR on cooldown because I'd overcap on infuriate's cooldown, because I have the sense to use infuriate when needed!

Buffing upheaval would have the effect of making WAR more punishing to play since it has a natural tendency to drift over time, eventually resulting in falling off your IR window or forgoing a use to remedy the drift. IC has the inherent benefit of being on a charged system. You go onto praise inner beast, but you have to keep in mind that in practice it was seldom used outside of prog, and that even then you're talking about a defensive buff that was tied to a GCD. Neither applies to NF, thankfully!






It was never complex.

Does anyone one want to point out no WAR in thier right mind is going to be waiting a whole minute to IC when there is a passive that reduces its cooldown by 5 secs for every FC or IC you do? No? Or the fact that WAR is also the one tank that gets the least out of party buffs?