What healers could stand to lose.

[Eloah]

Okay so, regardless of any other suggestions I've seen, and how I feel about them, one thing confuses me. Why are people saying remove Physick, from SCH?

Now hear me out, before I get butchered for defending a GCD base heal.

I get making the suggestion to remove Cure and Benefic and have them upgrade to Cure II and Benefic II. But why even suggest having Physick removed/upgrade to Adloquium? That's like saying replace Cure and Benefic with just Regen and Aspected Benefic, which no one has done, for obvious reasons. Physick is the only base heal that would "need" to stay, because the combined potencies of Physick and Embrace are supposed to act like Cure II and Benefic II.

SCH doesn't have a second tier basic heal, there is no Physick II, and I doubt people want one. On that same note SCH also doesn't have a first tier AoE heal. So suggesting the removal/upgrade of Medica or Helios is warrented, since SCH proves they aren't needed, even at lower levels. Faerie aside since she can't really "AoE" heal.

I wont delve into anything else, because an expanded kits usefulness is a bit more dependent on you experiences with other content. But this is the base kit we are talking about here.

I gonna put in a disclaimer without mentioning anything specific, because I wanna see how many people mention a certain heal after reading my statement. I hope no one does, but I'll cry if they do.

[Volkaj]

Okay so, regardless of any other suggestions I've seen, and how I feel about them, one thing confuses me. Why are people saying remove Physick, from SCH?

Now hear me out, before I get butchered for defending a GCD base heal.

I get making the suggestion to remove Cure and Benefic and have them upgrade to Cure II and Benefic II. But why even suggest having Physick removed/upgrade to Adloquium? That's like saying replace Cure and Benefic with just Regen and Aspected Benefic, which no one has done, for obvious reasons. Physick is the only base heal that would "need" to stay, because the combined potencies of Physick and Embrace are supposed to act like Cure II and Benefic II.

SCH doesn't have a second tier basic heal, there is no Physick II, and I doubt people want one. On that same note SCH also doesn't have a first tier AoE heal. So suggesting the removal/upgrade of Medica or Helios is warrented, since SCH proves they aren't needed, even at lower levels. Faerie aside since she can't really "AoE" heal.

I wont delve into anything else, because an expanded kits usefulness is a bit more dependent on you experiences with other content. But this is the base kit we are talking about here.

I gonna put in a disclaimer without mentioning anything specific, because I wanna see how many people mention a certain heal after reading my statement. I hope no one does, but I'll cry if they do.

You can have Adloquium be an upgrade to Physick if you have Adloquium's base heal increased to Physick's potency (as I've suggested in my rework here /shamelessplug).

Otherwise you are correct that it is not a direct upgrade, since Adloquium cannot be spammed like Cure II or Benefic II can. The issue however is how the skill is used in actual content: most of the time Physick is used just like Cure I and Benefic I are, where Adloquium (or more efficient healing tools) should be used. If your target is getting hit hard enough to warrant Cure II/Benefic II spam, Adloquium spam is gonna be just as effective, since they're getting hit. If you instead need to top off someone (which is somewhat rare), you can usually resort to Emergency Tactics and other tools.

Having Physick upgrade into Adloquium would also make SCH more consistent, since SCH does not have a non-shielding GCD AoE heal either (Succor and Emergency Tactics anyone?).

Removing Medica makes sense only because Cure III (and to some extend Medica II) exists. Since there is no equivalent to Cure III on AST, removing Helios wouldn't be as good an idea.

At lower levels SCH has access to Whispering Dawn to compensate for getting Succor late, so I'm not sure how SCH proves Medica/Helios aren't needed at low levels.

[Xiun]

I think people here are missing a lot of what makes some of the "1" spells still useful and good.

For instance, someone messes up a mechanics, the sch is dead and didn't get shields up - everyone takes a bigger hit of damage than you are expecting. I'm not about to want to spam medi2 and refresh hots over and over. You medi2 then spam 1-2 medi 1s as there is no need to pump more mana into a hot thats already doing it's job.

Same thing with cure 1. Sometimes you dont need to dump a mass amount of mana into someone and just need to top them a little bit to have them survive a mechanic. Faster cast, less mana, gets everything done.

Removing different level healing spells would ruin healers. Why do people want to dumb them down? There's very little issue with button bloat on them, and their variety of skills can really show who know's their job and who doesn't, not only in emergancy situations but in general raiding where you can abuse your kit to push out healing with little dps downtime. Sch opener has them atherflow, use every stack on energy drain, then dissapate. More DPS and using a skill so you make sure no one gets murdered until fairy/atherflow is back up. Atherpact even has it's uses when a tank may be taking a good chunk of damage and need a little extra help - Phase 3 of titan savage I routinely set my fairy on the MT to make sure they stay at a healthy range during the merry go round.

I guess my point is - why do people want to dumb down healers more than they are, prune fun and flexible abilities, because....? Sch is the only one I can think of having ANY "button bloat" issue and even then... not really.

[Crushnight]

I guess my point is - why do people want to dumb down healers more than they are, prune fun and flexible abilities, because....? Sch is the only one I can think of having ANY "button bloat" issue and even then... not really.

Simple the current state of the healers is due to \\'button bloat\\' from previous expansions pruning and removing what they felt was unnecessary.

Now removing nigh useless heals like cure 1, Benefic 1 which stop being any use due to tanks having much more inflated hp pools in ShB on top of nothing hitting hard enough to heal but not so hard that Cure 2 and benefic 2 cannot heal it on top of the ogcd healing bloat all makes them and their traits nigh useless, physick on the other hand experiences this and has done since lv50 by this point physick can straight up be traded for adlo, lustrate and fairy combined and you would never need to touch it period. Medica could probably fall in here too and laughs at fluid aura (small niche aside it needs updating).

Removing unnecessary skills even healing ones could free up space for more better skills or old returning ones. If their excuse for removing old skills was \\'button bloat\\' then I can clearly point to plenty already that can take the axe and around 95% of players would not care.

If (and yes Big IF) the devs reworked these abilities to be more beneficial and warrant existing as a separate buttons instead of using the upgrade system, which I actually do want to praise the devs for doing since it was annoying having malefic 1 and malefic 2 on bar in case went below malefic 2 range etc, then it would be a non issue but outside of syncing down does it hurt the healers much for these skills removal when they go heavily underutilised if it could allow better additions/old skills to replace them.

[Eloah]

Simple the current state of the healers is due to \\'button bloat\\' from previous expansions pruning and removing what they felt was unnecessary.

As a SCH main I can honestly say I have never had issues with button bloat. That being said, "button bloat" while definitely a thing, has factors involved, like playstyle, system, and comfortability. Healers have very little button bloat in comparison to jobs that don't get skill upgrades, looking at you BLM.

That aside, I think you are showing some lack of knowledge with regards to the healers and their toolkit. While you can make the claims about upgrading Cure, Benefic, Medic, and Helios, with updated MP costs, Physick. Adlo, and Lustrate, do not fit in with that premise. In fact I figured someone would mention Lustrate when it is irrelevant to the skills in question.

I gonna put in a disclaimer without mentioning anything specific, because I wanna see how many people mention a certain heal after reading my statement. I hope no one does, but I'll cry if they do.

Physick does correspond to Cure and Benefic, but Adlo and Lustrate correspond to Regen and Aspected Benefic, and Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity, respectively. Volkaj did have a "shameless plug" lol, about an idea for an upgraded version which is a sorta merged Physick and Aldo, but that is about it. And if that's a thing it would be better to upgrade the other base heals in the same way, merging them with their gimmicks. Also more frequent use of the base heal, as needed, show how good one is as a healer. Admittedly, AST has an issue with this since their base heal is only 400 without the added benefit of an additional 50/100 potency provided by Cure and the faerie respectively. (Embrace is like 1/4 of Physick)

Also in regards to the possible Physick into Adlo upgrade that Volkaj suggested. Currently, Adlo is 300 potency, with a 125% shield totalling 675 potency normally, 1050 when crit. Aspected Benefic is 200 potency with a 250% shield totalling 700 potency, always. And the 500 potency shield is equal to Divine Benison. Now since SCH doesnt have a second tier heal its critlo is acceptable, but if the potency was bumped up to 400, 400 plus a 125% heal would be 900 potency with a critlo being 1400, that's double what Cure II and Benefic II are. So in order for them to stay "relevant" they would need an increase in potency. But then you run into an over inflation of potencies that isn't needed.

[Crushnight]

As a SCH main I can honestly say I have never had issues with button bloat. That being said, "button bloat" while definitely a thing, has factors involved, like playstyle, system, and comfortability. Healers have very little button bloat in comparison to jobs that don't get skill upgrades, looking at you BLM.

That aside, I think you are showing some lack of knowledge with regards to the healers and their toolkit. While you can make the claims about upgrading Cure, Benefic, Medic, and Helios, with updated MP costs, Physick. Adlo, and Lustrate, do not fit in with that premise. In fact I figured someone would mention Lustrate when it is irrelevant to the skills in question.

I specifically said combined they make physick redundant from lv 50. Physick also shares Benefic and Cure 's traits of being too weak for ShB content while the job it is attached to is also overblown with far better options that is why it is regarded as useless. Sch just hits this earlier than the other two healers.

If Adlo's direct healing was uped with a slight lowering of the shield given would you care for Physick at that point? people do not care now which is why it is regarded as a just exists button.

As regards to button bloat back before cross hotbar was a thing I had 3 hotbars for sch(1 heals, 1 Dps, 1 half fairy, with some overlap between the three) on controller this was perfectly manageable to me yet I could certainly see where people may say that was too much. Now KB+mouse users have a different setup and button bloat is far less likely to occur here.

So bloat usually stemmed from controller side of things, nowadays bloat of number of abilities should be a non issue but we can have an overabundance of abilities which do not function within the current environment the game has gone in since they were introduced. These skills like the aforementioned benefic,cure,physick, medica could be reworked into the upgrade system and it wouldn't harm any of the healers(really wouldn't harm sch losing physick at 30 for slightly better heal from adlo though I think all 3 upgrades to base heal should have a lower mp cost than currently) this can give the devs more freedom to add without having to worry number of abilities are getting too high again.

Just to save myself what may get pointed out.
-adlo is combined direct heal + mitigation
-adlo non crit < cure 2
-adlo crit > crit cure 2
So long as this remains it will be fine.

ch would be fine without Physick the years have already proven that for me.

[Volkaj]

While you can make the claims about upgrading Cure, Benefic, Medic, and Helios, with updated MP costs, Physick. Adlo, and Lustrate, do not fit in with that premise. In fact I figured someone would mention Lustrate when it is irrelevant to the skills in question.

Lustrate does not fit in with Cure I/II, Benefic I/II and Physick/Adloquium as its an OGCD, and has a different opportunity cost. It fits more with Excogitation, Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity (does not fit perfectly, but fits better). Adloquium does match pretty well with Cure II and Benefic II in one of its two main use cases, which is GCD healing a single target taking heavy, continuous damage. Like tanks during some trash pulls once your OGCDs are exhausted. This is because in those cases you are not using the shield as mitigation (eHP), but simply as effective healing. The other main use is obviously shielding, if the target is gonna be one-shot otherwise, or to use Deployment Tactics.

Physick does correspond to Cure and Benefic, but Adlo and Lustrate correspond to Regen and Aspected Benefic, and Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity, respectively.

Adloquium does not correspond to Regen in any shape or form. Noct Asp. Benefic corresponds to Adloquium and Diur. Asp Benefic corresponds to Regen, since AST sects try to mimic both SCH and WHM, but those skills have vastly different use cases. You would never spam Regen on a tank during a trash pull, but you would absolutely spam Adlo. Keeping a Regen up at all times on a tank might be a good idea, but it is futile to keep an Adlo up. Them seemingly occupying the same skill slot does not make them correspond in use.

Also more frequent use of the base heal, as needed, show how good one is as a healer.

They are very rarely the most efficient tools on hand. They are in fact usually good indicators of a bad healer. Efficient and planned skill use shows how good one is as a healer.

Also in regards to the possible Physick into Adlo upgrade that Volkaj suggested. Currently, Adlo is 300 potency, with a 125% shield totalling 675 potency normally, 1050 when crit. Aspected Benefic is 200 potency with a 250% shield totalling 700 potency, always. And the 500 potency shield is equal to Divine Benison. Now since SCH doesnt have a second tier heal its critlo is acceptable, but if the potency was bumped up to 400, 400 plus a 125% heal would be 900 potency with a critlo being 1400, that's double what Cure II and Benefic II are. So in order for them to stay "relevant" they would need an increase in potency. But then you run into an over inflation of potencies that isn't needed.

My rework also reduces the shield % to 80%, and removes the double-on-crit effect. Which gives a ~720 potency heal per cast, about the same as Cure II/Benefic II.

[Eloah]

I specifically said combined they make physick redundant from lv 50. Physick also shares Benefic and Cure 's traits of being too weak for ShB content while the job it is attached to is also overblown with far better options that is why it is regarded as useless. Sch just hits this earlier than the other two healers.

Something to remember is that we are still early in the expansion, too often people get use to the "end game" prior to a major patch/expansion and get shocked when there is a sudden spike in potency outputs, whether a dip or increase. Currently, in all 470 gear, Physick heal for about 1/5th of my health, and back in the day at level 50 it was also around 1/5th, though near endgame it got closer to 1/4th, so nothing has really changed. If anything what has changed is an emphasis on a healer to focus on healing just a bit more.

If Adlo's direct healing was uped with a slight lowering of the shield given would you care for Physick at that point? people do not care now which is why it is regarded as a just exists button.

That would defeat the entire purpose of SCH's gimmick. Your goal is to use the gimmick heals combined with the basic heals. That's why the Physick to Adlo suggestion doesnt work since Adlo is a gimmick heal not a basic heal. At that point it become what I mentioned earlier, just placing the gimmicks on the basic heals, which just feels lazy.

Just to save myself what may get pointed out.
-adlo is combined direct heal + mitigation
-adlo non crit < cure 2
-adlo crit > crit cure 2
So long as this remains it will be fine.

This is not inaccurate, but the values matter as well. Currently, they are at 675 and 700 base, and 1050 and 700 crit. But what alternative direct healing potency would you give to Adlo to maintain this set up. Keeping in mind that the Shield must be of a decent value and cannot be significantly less in comparison to the AST shield. Currently the AST shield is a 500 potency compared to SCH's 375 for A. Benefic/Adlo and
250 and 225 for A. Helios/Succor. With combined potencies of 700/675 and 450/405, the difference offset by the faerie. The shield needs to be of a decent value otherwise it might as well be direct healing at that point.

[Eloah]

Lustrate does not fit in with Cure I/II, Benefic I/II and Physick/Adloquium as its an OGCD, and has a different opportunity cost. It fits more with Excogitation, Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity (does not fit perfectly, but fits better). Adloquium does match pretty well with Cure II and Benefic II in one of its two main use cases, which is GCD healing a single target taking heavy, continuous damage. Like tanks during some trash pulls once your OGCDs are exhausted. This is because in those cases you are not using the shield as mitigation (eHP), but simply as effective healing. The other main use is obviously shielding, if the target is gonna be one-shot otherwise, or to use Deployment Tactics.

Yes, that was my point. Lustrate is an oGCD heal compared to Physick and Adlo which are GCD.

Adloquium does not correspond to Regen in any shape or form. Noct Asp. Benefic corresponds to Adloquium and Diur. Asp Benefic corresponds to Regen, since AST sects try to mimic both SCH and WHM, but those skills have vastly different use cases. You would never spam Regen on a tank during a trash pull, but you would absolutely spam Adlo. Keeping a Regen up at all times on a tank might be a good idea, but it is futile to keep an Adlo up. Them seemingly occupying the same skill slot does not make them correspond in use.

The gimmick, Adlo is the gimmick heal, like Regen and Aspected Benefic. That's what I was saying. What they do is irrelevant, since they are the GCD heal with the gimmick attached.

They are very rarely the most efficient tools on hand. They are in fact usually good indicators of a bad healer. Efficient and planned skill use shows how good one is as a healer.

Never said they were efficient, I said their use, as needed, shows how good someone is. As the lower heal prevents over healing when needed.

My rework also reduces the shield % to 80%, and removes the double-on-crit effect. Which gives a ~720 potency heal per cast, about the same as Cure II/Benefic II.

At that point it's questionable if the shield is even worth it, as well as it lining up with my assessment that at that point all of the base heals might as well just have the gimmick attached, which should not become a thing. I know the 320 isnt too far off from the 375 it currently is, but a shield that's less than 100% feels wrong some how.

[Volkaj]

What they do is irrelevant, since they are the GCD heal with the gimmick attached.

I... huh... what? You're saying that what the skills actually do is irrelevant?

Lemme just... respectfully disagree. No, what the skills actually do matters.
My suggestion on having Physick upgrade into Adloquium is based on how the two are actually used, and how they work. Not on how one is supposed to be a "gimmick".