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  1. #1
    Player
    Tatiana's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Ul'dah
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    Desmina Lys
    World
    Cactuar
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    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedkel View Post
    Dungeons are my favourite part of content as well as alliance raids because its the only content that offers tank jobs doing something different.
    They are having more and more subs yet they are drastically decrease the quality and quantity of patches and content we get, this is a joke.
    To be fair, they also have a lot of increased costs associated with upgrading back-end systems ever since ceasing PS3 support which is a very positive thing for "future-proofing" the game but I agree it sucks when content has to decrease.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Nedkel's Avatar
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    Chloe Lehideux
    World
    Zodiark
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    Samurai Lv 74
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatiana View Post
    To be fair, they also have a lot of increased costs associated with upgrading back-end systems ever since ceasing PS3 support which is a very positive thing for "future-proofing" the game but I agree it sucks when content has to decrease.
    Back-end did not changed, we are still using the same textures quality like we did with ps3 support.
    Net code has not changed as well.

    They are spending most of the FFXIV money into other projects and dragging Yoshi away from ffxiv.
    Thats why we have half baked limited races
    Thats why eureka is forgotten
    Thats why pvp is a joke
    Thats why iconic Nier glamour items are pixelated modeling bugs
    Thats why Jobs are getting dumber and dumber and simplified
    And thats why we have lost dungeon per patch.

    If anyone thinks that we are going to get anything extra in a place of lost dungeon then he is naive, because it will not happen. They are clearly cutting edges of this game budget wherever they could. Today we lost dungeon, tommorow we will get 2 raids instead of 4 just because.

    For me personally mmorpg without a solid base dungeons is dead mmorpg, and ffxiv is consequently proving me its all going downhill from this point. I play other mmorpgs as well so i have third person perspective on this game, limiting such a important aspect of the mmorpg is not going to play well for SE at all. There are still a ton of people playing those dungeons, i would even argue the amount of people playing them is much much larger than raids.
    (5)
    Last edited by Nedkel; 01-10-2020 at 11:29 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    yukiiyuki's Avatar
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    Mar 2016
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    Flame Foxter
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    Zodiark
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    Rogue Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedkel View Post
    They are spending most of the FFXIV money into other projects and dragging Yoshi away from ffxiv.
    Heard about new mobile MMO for china market they're investing? I wonder what money they used.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player
    Lambdafish's Avatar
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    Khuja'to Binbotaj
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    Hyperion
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    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedkel View Post
    snip
    Whoa, take your foil hat off buddy. The game has seen massive improvements since the game improved, I'd say one of the biggest defining things that stormblood gave us was QoL. So many things that the devs said were impossible happened, the back end is slowly changing, and a lot of the spaghetti code is being ironed out. We have already seen first hand the improvements that have been made, something tells me you are willfully ignorant, and just want to complain.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player
    Nedkel's Avatar
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    Chloe Lehideux
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    Zodiark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambdafish View Post
    Whoa, take your foil hat off buddy. The game has seen massive improvements since the game improved, I'd say one of the biggest defining things that stormblood gave us was QoL. So many things that the devs said were impossible happened, the back end is slowly changing, and a lot of the spaghetti code is being ironed out. We have already seen first hand the improvements that have been made, something tells me you are willfully ignorant, and just want to complain.
    For example? Because net code is still hot potato, and ffxiv requirements are going up with PS4 pro having problems to maintain 60 fps.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player
    Lambdafish's Avatar
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    Khuja'to Binbotaj
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    Hyperion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nedkel View Post
    For example? Because net code is still hot potato, and ffxiv requirements are going up with PS4 pro having problems to maintain 60 fps.
    More housing, more inventory space, glamour dresser, things like your chocobo not being a party member anymore, and IDK, the game being entirely cross server now???? These things take huge backend changes and improvements that didn't exist in ARR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    It's often like they're just throwing out darts almost randomly and hoping they'll learn at least some small part of a lesson later -- in roughly equal portion between targeting grind value (one might say, the lowest form of efficiency), imitation of other game's systems, and defensively applied malicious compliance ("well, you complained about getting too much, so how about too little?!").
    I don't think this is true, though I think the reality isn't any better. I think the devs designs do have cohesion, it's just that their implementation takes far longer, and the way that content is sliced into chunks is poorly handled. Take Eureka for example: In hindsight, the grand plan for that content looks good, the original intention was for things like logos actions to be a core part of the experience, but we didn't get them at launch, which (particularly in Pagos) soured the experience because what we were offered was only half the package. A more recent example is Ishgardian restoration, Yoshi P has outright said that this offering isn't the full experience and what players are asking for is already planned.

    I think you are right about the learned lessons, but its like they have the cohesive design for 100% and chopping it up into 25% pieces and giving us those (without telling us what the 100% is), what people want is an initial 100% and then to get additional content updates to expand upon that 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by yukiiyuki View Post
    Seems like someone don't want to read and just pulling sentences of of context. Don't worry, you will get your new garden stuff or a new game in golden saucer and be happy with it.
    Please don't engage with this Linay, it's bait.
    (1)
    Last edited by Lambdafish; 01-10-2020 at 11:00 PM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    Tani Shirai
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    Cactuar
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    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lambdafish View Post
    I don't think this is true, though I think the reality isn't any better. I think the devs designs do have cohesion, it's just that their implementation takes far longer, and the way that content is sliced into chunks is poorly handled. Take Eureka for example: In hindsight, the grand plan for that content looks good, the original intention was for things like logos actions to be a core part of the experience, but we didn't get them at launch, which (particularly in Pagos) soured the experience because what we were offered was only half the package. A more recent example is Ishgardian restoration, Yoshi P has outright said that this offering isn't the full experience and what players are asking for is already planned.

    I think you are right about the learned lessons, but its like they have the cohesive design for 100% and chopping it up into 25% pieces and giving us those (without telling us what the 100% is), what people want is an initial 100% and then to get additional content updates to expand upon that 100%.
    A good point, and it's what makes me wish the GDC and the like had more insight into MMO development, specifically, because I can't seem to find enough samples to draw real examples of what good prototyping and bad prototyping each look like. Thus, I'll have to fall back on hypotheticals and abstracts for now, which is... far from ideal.

    Let's say we're building something like Eureka in the next year, but with a lot more features and a more compelling, less grindy experience intended by its apex.

    "Good" prototyping:
    Player's attentions shouldn't be drawn to new modes of play until those modes are fleshed out well enough to be compelling. You want to avoid complaints by adding the modular components you wish to test prior to the new mode's release into existing modes that aren't flush with criticisms. (The only exception would be if there's a heavily criticized mode into which the components can fit and would fix some of the issues perceived in that mode, in which case you start there instead.) In that way, they seem like an unexpected treat in something players are already used to. (Or, it seems slow progress towards polishing the existing game, rather than abandoning (n) for (n+1), which tends to prompt increasingly soured or more critical perceptions of each new mode.)

    Regardless of overall design philosophy, feedback tapers off with age, so any flaws in a new mode are going to have an even larger impact on its player impressions of competence than will the positive effects of the mode's novelty (and that's assuming, perhaps wrongly, it is even truly unique or novel), so it needs to feel like a complete experience upon release. This does not mean that every new feature needs to be in place, but there should be no obvious issues onto which players can latch and the components should play out newly enough not to be met with complaints that the content is just more of the same or repackaged mechanics, etc.

    So, let's say wanted to make a compelling experience of Anemos for the start. A few more features would likely be necessary. We'd want to include these features in a way that doesn't necessarily lead players to expect that new content is on the way (as a side-effect, to be clear, of having a reasonable fit and purpose among existing modes).

    To take a spitball approach for now, let's say we start by making a big deal out of the upcoming Monster Hunter crossover; we can claim to be preparing the way for it or just leave our motives implied at best. At any rate, we start by revamping our hunt system somewhat. It reintegrates B, A, and S ranks with the general hunt board and Hunt Logs, introduces a tracking system for A ranks that works a bit like a miniature quest chain wherein your party hunts down these mobs, and scales hunt difficulty and rewards when tracked to the item level of your party, moving away from hunt trains and towards scaled, less zerg-ish party content. If possible, we also try to include fixes to load priorities so players can more easily see their own party and the boss when in massive fights. To the players, this already seems like an answer to common complaints about the hunt system. In truth, it does, but it also paves the way for a more interesting experience in Anemos.

    In our next preparatory patch, we introduce our Monster Hunter bosses as sort of the apex experiences for the previously given system -- an S-rank expansion of the tracking system that now involves multiple interwoven party tracking quests. One party prevents Rathalos from grabbing and running off with... giant buffalo or what have you... for food. Another besieges its nest, and a third finds a way to lock it within once it's drawn back, etc., etc. Now, that's more resource-expensive than simply making a standard Extreme fight out of it, but it gives you opportunities for Anemos and beyond. Further, make Rathalos drop actual crafting ingrediants to be used in making his stuff; anyone can talk to the hunters, one of which now has a work station by some forge in Kugane, to have the stuff the made for them for a fee, but players with an especially well-geared crafter can use fewer materials to guarantee an HQ Rathalos item or some similar reward. (Again, Eureka prep.) On the more casual side of things, you increase mob kill EXP in the open world and bring back Behests, which now allow for a bit more free-form patrols and forays and allow successfully cleared encounters to spawn stronger monsters, up to the point where parties can enjoyably EXP grind in some areas (albeit still not as efficiently as dungeon spamming, but often made up for if the mobs carry useful crafting ingredients). On the surface it's sort of a change towards "Play as you like" and better utilization of the open world, but it's also pivotal for making Anemos mob-slaughter feel more intrinsically rewarding.

    So by now we have just enough to make Anemos truly compelling. All we need now is to not alienate broad sections of players (e.g. those with friends who play [Eureka] more often or less often than they do) and design the map and mobs in such a way as to make it feel more about danger than grind. Needless to say, you squash the total number of levels, and/or the leveling curve, and allow for level sync to one's party. You tune mobs more for risk-reward than grind-efficiency by giving them powerful enough stats, skills, and maybe even some AI or obligatory links (pulling one pulls the pack) for variety. You use the spawns of more powerful mobs, prior to the NMs, to vary the grind experience in a given mob zone. You include tracks system triggers and clues to nudge players out of their comfort zones and into more or less populated spaces as useful to preserve the intended gameplay. Etc., etc.

    Though, this also means picking the right threads to start from and work towards over the Eureka series. If you bother with a system like the elemental wheel, for instance, you must make it do more than just punish fighting in zones where you're likely to pick up multiple mob types or where tanks have to excessively compromise between enmity (as a consequence of damage) and defense. If you want to make the prior work, make it a real threat that can't just be toggled about. Otherwise, skip it, and spend that time instead on, say... turning Anemos more into the Land of the Winds through some unique mechanic (though you can certainly have it be less of an impact in your introductory zone than in later ones) and developing craftable gear that makes use of the Anemos NMs as per what the Monster Hunter crossover (and Rathalos) started.

    You can then guess where Pagos will go: more monsters directly usable for crafting, and perhaps more horizontal progression or the like, such as to set up camps to deal with the harsh blizzards (not everyone needs a Cloak of Winter or the like, but someone will at least need a Winter's Shroud tent which they can later disassemble into personal items). Rather than just grinding your way through everything or only doing your challenge logs once per week you'd have things to target. I want to kill a Dragon because... Heart of Winter and that really awesome Dragoon armor. We need Wendigo furs for... a community base-camp up in the northeast. We want to kill the Spriggin Queen to steal her consumables for cloaking ourselves in the snow or to turn into a craftable which, when equipped, gives us access to that skill via a CD. Etc., etc. Rather than just throwing in systems for the sake of systems or artificial longevity, we try to engage more with risk-reward than mere gather-grind efficiency and give each mob a deeper impact on the surrounding mode, e.g. through the skills it reveals to you (which higher rank versions are likely to repeat with even more danger and less warning), what it helps spawn, and what you can craft from it.

    To an extent, generalization, such as what the Eurekan kettle did for us, can be a good thing in that it allows anyone to join a party anywhere in the zone -- just as a squished leveling curve would have helped in Anemos, especially in the absence of leveling sync. Relic gear is of course iconic and generally liked. But there needs to at least be something to vary that experience, rather than just '95% literally any mob' and '5% Pazuzu', or the like. Everyone should make use of the top NMs in about the same proportion, but there are all sorts of things you can do to maintain accessibility while providing variety. For instance, what about custom crafting? Maybe I can use more Wind NM ingredients and get different Relic armor effects (at least within Eureka), similar to the HW "build your own Relic('s secondary stats)" system. (Of course, personally, I'd prefer to skip the Relic armor in favor of Eureka-specific Relic items usable by all for their ilvl, but adding to the Eureka experience, especially as we change what all can be done with the Eureka zones over the course of the series, but I get that for many content merely equates to a way to most efficiently gear up or to most efficiently gear up when broke and unwilling to run remotely difficult content, so... idk).
    For contrast, "bad" (or at least mediocre) prototyping:
    What we got.
    (5)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 01-11-2020 at 07:25 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    SenorPatty's Avatar
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    May 2016
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    Cosmic Black Hole of a Hot Pocket
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    Vice Shark
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    Coeurl
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    Samurai Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    A good point, and it's what makes me wish the GDC and the like had more insight into MMO development, specifically, because I can't seem to find enough samples to draw real examples of what good prototyping and bad prototyping each look like. Thus, I'll have to fall back on hypotheticals and abstracts for now, which is... far from ideal.

    Let's say we're building something like Eureka in the next year, but with a lot more features and a more compelling, less grindy experience intended by its apex.

    "Good" prototyping:
    Player's attentions shouldn't be drawn to new modes of play until those modes are fleshed out well enough to be compelling. You want to avoid complaints by adding the modular components you wish to test prior to the new mode's release into existing modes that aren't flush with criticisms. (The only exception would be if there's a heavily criticized mode into which the components can fit and would fix some of the issues perceived in that mode, in which case you start there instead.) In that way, they seem like an unexpected treat in something players are already used to. (Or, it seems slow progress towards polishing the existing game, rather than abandoning (n) for (n+1), which tends to prompt increasingly soured or more critical perceptions of each new mode.)

    Regardless of overall design philosophy, feedback tapers off with age, so any flaws in a new mode are going to have an even larger impact on its player impressions of competence than will the positive effects of the mode's novelty (and that's assuming, perhaps wrongly, it is even truly unique or novel), so it needs to feel like a complete experience upon release. This does not mean that every new feature needs to be in place, but there should be no obvious issues onto which players can latch and the components should play out newly enough not to be met with complaints that the content is just more of the same or repackaged mechanics, etc.

    So, let's say wanted to make a compelling experience of Anemos for the start. A few more features would likely be necessary. We'd want to include these features in a way that doesn't necessarily lead players to expect that new content is on the way (as a side-effect, to be clear, of having a reasonable fit and purpose among existing modes).

    To take a spitball approach for now, let's say we start by making a big deal out of the upcoming Monster Hunter crossover; we can claim to be preparing the way for it or just leave our motives implied at best. At any rate, we start by revamping our hunt system somewhat. It reintegrates B, A, and S ranks with the general hunt board and Hunt Logs, introduces a tracking system for A ranks that works a bit like a miniature quest chain wherein your party hunts down these mobs, and scales hunt difficulty and rewards when tracked to the item level of your party, moving away from hunt trains and towards scaled, less zerg-ish party content.(Reader insert here: would be great if this ultimately culminated into a guildhest as a great way to re-invigorate that content that seems to collect dust) If possible, we also try to include fixes to load priorities so players can more easily see their own party and the boss when in massive fights. To the players, this already seems like an answer to common complaints about the hunt system. In truth, it does, but it also paves the way for a more interesting experience in Anemos.

    In our next preparatory patch, we introduce our Monster Hunter bosses as sort of the apex experiences for the previously given system -- an S-rank expansion of the tracking system that now involves multiple interwoven party tracking quests. One party prevents Rathalos from grabbing and running off with... giant buffalo or what have you... for food. Another besieges its nest, and a third finds a way to lock it within once it's drawn back, etc., etc. Now, that's more resource-expensive than simply making a standard Extreme fight out of it, but it gives you opportunities for Anemos and beyond. Further, make Rathalos drop actual crafting ingrediants to be used in making his stuff; anyone can talk to the hunters, one of which now has a work station by some forge in Kugane, to have the stuff the made for them for a fee, but players with an especially well-geared crafter can use fewer materials to guarantee an HQ Rathalos item or some similar reward. (Again, Eureka prep.) On the more casual side of things, you increase mob kill EXP in the open world and bring back Behests, which now allow for a bit more free-form patrols and forays and allow successfully cleared encounters to spawn stronger monsters, up to the point where parties can enjoyably EXP grind in some areas (albeit still not as efficiently as dungeon spamming, but often made up for if the mobs carry useful crafting ingredients). On the surface it's sort of a change towards "Play as you like" and better utilization of the open world, but it's also pivotal for making Anemos mob-slaughter feel more intrinsically rewarding.

    So by now we have just enough to make Anemos truly compelling. All we need now is to not alienate broad sections of players (e.g. those with friends who play [Eureka] more often or less often than they do and design the map and mobs in such a way as to make it feel more about danger than grind. Needless to say, you squash the total number of levels, and/or the leveling curve, and allow for level sync to one's party. You tune mobs more for risk-reward than grind-efficiency by giving them powerful enough stats, skills, and maybe even some AI or obligatory links (pulling one pulls the pack) for variety. You use the spawns of more powerful mobs, prior to the NMs, to vary the grind experience in a given mob zone. You include tracks system triggers and clues to nudge players out of their comfort zones and into more or less populated spaces as useful to preserve the intended gameplay. Etc., etc.

    Though, this also means picking the right threads to start from and work towards over the Eureka series. If you bother with a system like the elemental wheel, for instance, you must make it do more than just punish fighting in zones where you're likely to pick up multiple mob types or where tanks have to excessively compromise between enmity (as a consequence of damage) and defense. If you want to make the prior work, make it a real threat that can't just be toggled about. Otherwise, skip it, and spend that time instead on, say... turning Anemos more into the Land of the Winds through some unique mechanic (though you can certainly have it be less of an impact in your introductory zone than in later ones) and developing craftable gear that makes use of the Anemos NMs as per what the Monster Hunter crossover (and Rathalos) started.

    You can then guess where Pagos will go: more monsters directly usable for crafting, and perhaps more horizontal progression or the like, such as to set up camps to deal with the harsh blizzards (not everyone needs a Cloak of Winter or the like, but someone will at least need a Winter's Shroud tent which they can later disassemble into personal items). Rather than just grinding your way through everything or only doing your challenge logs once per week you'd have things to target. I want to kill a Dragon because... Heart of Winter and that really awesome Dragoon armor. We need Wendigo furs for... a community base-camp up in the northeast. We want to kill the Spriggin Queen to steal her consumables for cloaking ourselves in the snow or to turn into a craftable which, when equipped, gives us access to that skill via a CD. Etc., etc. Rather than just throwing in systems for the sake of systems or artificial longevity, we try to engage more with risk-reward than mere gather-grind efficiency and give each mob a deeper impact on the surrounding mode, e.g. through the skills it reveals to you (which higher rank versions are likely to repeat with even more danger and less warning), what it helps spawn, and what you can craft from it.

    To an extent, generalization, such as what the Eurekan kettle did for us, can be a good thing in that it allows anyone to join a party anywhere in the zone -- just as a squished leveling curve would have helped in Anemos, especially in the absence of leveling sync. Relic gear is of course iconic and generally liked. But there needs to at least be something to vary that experience, rather than just '95% literally any mob' and '5% Pazuzu', or the like. Everyone should make use of the top NMs in about the same proportion, but there are all sorts of things you can do to maintain accessibility while providing variety. For instance, what about custom crafting? Maybe I can use more Wind NM ingredients and get different Relic armor effects (at least within Eureka), similar to the HW "build your own Relic('s secondary stats)" system. (Of course, personally, I'd prefer to skip the Relic armor in favor of Eureka-specific Relic items usable by all for their ilvl, but adding to the Eureka experience, especially as we change what all can be done with the Eureka zones over the course of the series, but I get that for many content merely equates to a way to most efficiently gear up or to most efficiently gear up when broke and unwilling to run remotely difficult content, so... idk).
    For contrast, "bad" (or at least mediocre) prototyping:
    What we got.
    This was such a good read. I take it this was written sometime during Stormblood, right? Doesn't matter. The bolded parts without my inserts are not just points I'd like to see but they mostly bolded because they represent to me the one and true thing Eureka failed to do for me: being engaging content. It's hard for me to acquiesce Eureka as engaging content when the immediate feedback you get from other players is "it's fun if you're with friends." or "its fun if you're watching netflix" or "it's fun because you can just relax mindlessly until X pops". When you have this type of lasting content where it's fun is exceedingly contingent on third party interaction as means of complete distraction, it means the content has failed to be engaging. Now for some, that might actually be fine, as they say it's all about the experience and fun is subjective. But when engagement can be measured objectively and Eureka didn't bring that.
    (0)
    Quote Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne View Post
    Healing DRK is literally... the same since ShB. The reason why people think it's a meme to heal nowadays because DRK receives very little to no buff to their sustainability vs 3 other tanks getting something useful. If you're capable of healing DRK back in ShB (or any tanks), then you'll heal EW DRK just fine.

  9. #9
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
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    Feb 2016
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    Lavender Beds, Ward 13, Plot 41
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    Hyomin Park
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    Cactuar
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    Sage Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedkel View Post
    They are spending most of the FFXIV money into other projects and dragging Yoshi away from ffxiv.
    Thats why Jobs are getting dumber and dumber and simplified
    These two statements have nothing to do with one another. Jobs are becoming simpler and simpler because the developers in this game like accessibility. And because people complain that things like Straight Shot and Heavy Thrust and DoTs are difficult to keep up.

    For me personally mmorpg without a solid base dungeons is dead mmorpg, and ffxiv is consequently proving me its all going downhill from this point. I play other mmorpgs as well so i have third person perspective on this game, limiting such a important aspect of the mmorpg is not going to play well for SE at all. There are still a ton of people playing those dungeons, i would even argue the amount of people playing them is much much larger than raids.
    It’s my opinion that dungeons in this game haven’t really been all that solid—at least, level capped ones. The story dungeons are mostly fine and I prefer them. AA and the Twinning may have been aesthetically pleasing, but they were basically the same thing with different coats of paint. There’s nothing special or different about the flow or either of them. If they could actually mix things up and make dungeons something more than 2 packs of trash > boss > 2 packs of trash > boss > 2 packs of trash > final boss or actually make them semi-challenging instead of something I can do without just being a green DPS, then maybe I would be more bothered. However, this seems to be their formula, so I’m not that griefed about losing one.
    (5)
    Sage | Astrologian | Dancer

    마지막 날 널 찾아가면
    마지막 밤 기억하길

    Hyomin Park#0055

  10. #10
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Kurenai Tenshi
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    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    It’s my opinion that dungeons in this game haven’t really been all that solid—at least, level capped ones. The story dungeons are mostly fine and I prefer them. AA and the Twinning may have been aesthetically pleasing, but they were basically the same thing with different coats of paint. There’s nothing special or different about the flow or either of them. If they could actually mix things up and make dungeons something more than 2 packs of trash > boss > 2 packs of trash > boss > 2 packs of trash > final boss or actually make them semi-challenging instead of something I can do without just being a green DPS, then maybe I would be more bothered. However, this seems to be their formula, so I’m not that griefed about losing one.
    Adding to this from a tank perspective. When I can accumulate eight vulnerability stacks and the tank buster still doesn't break 50% of my total HP, why do I even care about the mechanics? Dodging them is entirely meaningless because they aren't remotely threatening. This ultimately makes dungeons increasingly less engaging because they're essentially a series of target dummies with the occasional "big pull" that moderately threatens a tank. Now if the dungeons were at least interesting in another way, I wouldn't mind how easy they have become. Copied Factory, for example, isn't challenging by any means but it's fun enough. Unfortunately, dungeons lack any noteworthy aspects. Like HyoMin said, they're the same two packs > boss x3 with a different coat of paint.

    Can't really say I care about losing another one.
    (4)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."