Parsing? Drama? ToS? Solution!

[Hyrist]

This comment is such a non-point.
It's not my responsibility, when I go into a PUG - to make sure each and every player is pulling at least the basics of their class in level 80 content.

As a group leader, it is. Ultimately if someone show's up in poor gear without any seeming preparation and is obviously holding back the group, you should make that call. Otherwise, you're leaving that responsibility in the hands of others, and you lose control of the situation.

It shouldn't be my job to call them out/kick them - it should be their job to join in the content when they understand the basics of the class they are playing.

Real life experience in professional leadership fields should have taught you otherwise.

In any project, someone must be the spearhead - the person to take initiative. That person also assumes the mantle of responsibility as much as he possibly can. That also means handling disputes or performance issues. If you can't deal with that responsibility, don't lead. If you're not leading, you willingly sacrifice a measure of control of the situation, and your frustration is simply impotent.

As far as DF goes, that's a lottery you willingly subjugate yourself to if you're not going in with friends. You don't wade into the ocean without pausing to think of what might be out there to ruin your day, and if you don't then that's on you for not preparing yourself properly.

In the end this boils down to initiative, and the responsibility for taking it. Whether or not a person performs as expected is moot compared to the responsibilities of leadership, and the requirement to act according to the rules set in place that we accepted when playing the game.

You can't control people. You can't even fully control your chances with people you don't know. (Though you should try to use your best judgement.) You, can only control yourself. And when you allow yourself to lose control, you are responsible for that outburst, no one else.

I'm all for giving people more tools to improve themselves in game. But ultimately, that will only go so far. In the end this will always boil down to good old fashioned people skills. You have to have them, there's no excuse not to have them, and they superseded game performance issues in this situation every single time. If you find yourself grouping with people who don't have them, get out or get them out.

[Hash_Browns]

As a group leader, it is. Ultimately if someone show's up in poor gear without any seeming preparation and is obviously holding back the group, you should make that call. Otherwise, you're leaving that responsibility in the hands of others, and you lose control of the situation.



Real life experience in professional leadership fields should have taught you otherwise.

In any project, someone must be the spearhead - the person to take initiative. That person also assumes the mantle of responsibility as much as he possibly can. That also means handling disputes or performance issues. If you can't deal with that responsibility, don't lead. If you're not leading, you willingly sacrifice a measure of control of the situation, and your frustration is simply impotent.

As far as DF goes, that's a lottery you willingly subjugate yourself to if you're not going in with friends. You don't wade into the ocean without pausing to think of what might be out there to ruin your day, and if you don't then that's on you for not preparing yourself properly.

In the end this boils down to initiative, and the responsibility for taking it. Whether or not a person performs as expected is moot compared to the responsibilities of leadership, and the requirement to act according to the rules set in place that we accepted when playing the game.

You can't control people. You can't control your chances with people. You, can only control yourself. And when you allow yourself to lose control, you are responsible for that outburst, no one else.

I'm all for giving people more tools to improve themselves in game. But ultimately, that will only go so far. In the end this will always boil down to good old fashioned people skills. You have to have them, there's no excuse not to have them, and they superseded game performance issues in this situation every single time. If you find yourself grouping with people who don't have them, get out or get them out.

I really love that all of your points boil down to basically telling me that expecting the basics of understanding a multiplayer team-based game is all on my hands when my teammates don't know the basics.

It's really not, and this situation isn't this black-and-white.

I'm more so talking about the DF, as in the PF - well, I have a static for savage/EX content. If we join with anyone who isn't pulling even the basics, we will remove them.

Telling me that when i queue for the DF that if I get someone who doesn't know anything about the class they are playing, afking, doing whatever is what I signed up for - well that's a load of crap. That's not how it works. It's not my job to carry people, and honestly nothing can really change my mind on that. You're wrong. End of story.

[RyuSaarva]

I really love that all of your points boil down to basically telling me that expecting the basics of understanding a multiplayer team-based game is all on my hands when my teammates don't know the basics.

It's really not, and this situation isn't this black-and-white.

I'm more so talking about the DF, as in the PF - well, I have a static for savage/EX content. If we join with anyone who isn't pulling even the basics, we will remove them.

Telling me that when i queue for the DF that if I get someone who doesn't know anything about the class they are playing, afking, doing whatever is what I signed up for - well that's a load of crap. That's not how it works. It's not my job to carry people, and honestly nothing can really change my mind on that. You're wrong. End of story.

take your ragequit bonus then, everyone will have more fun when you are not complaining in the party chat.

[Hyrist]

I really love that all of your points boil down to basically telling me that expecting the basics of understanding a multiplayer team-based game is all on my hands when my teammates don't know the basics.

It's really not, and this situation isn't this black-and-white.

I'm more so talking about the DF, as in the PF - well, I have a static for savage/EX content. If we join with anyone who isn't pulling even the basics, we will remove them.

Telling me that when i queue for the DF that if I get someone who doesn't know anything about the class they are playing, afking, doing whatever is what I signed up for - well that's a load of crap. That's not how it works. It's not my job to carry people, and honestly nothing can really change my mind on that. You're wrong. End of story.

This is where I see you're not paying attention.

Nothing in what you said disagreed with my statements.

Let's break down the points:

It's the responsibility of the group leadership to make the call to remove members who are no preforming well or is no willing to improve - we agree here.

It is not your job to carry people who are under-performing. - We agree here as well.

You seem to think that me telling you that you have to be good at discerning whether or not a person will work with your group is the same as me telling you that you must accept every player walking in the door.

That's not what's being said here.

What's being said is that you (I'm guessing your static leader specifically) has to have the people skills to properly recruit and discern whether or not the person being added in your group is going to work well with the rest of his or her group. (usually this takes an attempt or few) That ultimately it's the responsibility of leadership to make those decisions.

It is also the responsibility of each and every member of the game, per the ToS, to be respectful of one another, and part ways when things don't work out, without harassing one another. Every other excuse you try to put into this is irrelevant to those points.

It is my opinion that most situations can be diffused with proper communication skills in this game.

So, let's be clear here - When you signed up for DF, you did sign up to occasionally run into that person who expects to be carried. But, you don't have to carry them. You DO have to not be rude about it, and that's not even my words - that's the ToS talking.

[Angus-Beef]

I think the worst part about everything is that being rude and expecting someone to not be bad is synonymous.

[Hyrist]

I think the worst part about everything is that being rude and expecting someone to not be bad is synonymous.

I actually haven't had this issue in game as much as being advertised in forums. Typically, when a person is under-performing, they know it. And if they don't, being shown ways they can have a bigger impact on the fight usually helps them feel better in the game overall.

Because nobody LIKES losing constantly.

In my experience, it's usually in the pitch. "How have you not gotten this down!? This is basic stuff!" Might be the truth, but it's not going to get someone to listen or improve. It's going to put them on the defensive. Ultimately it's up to you whether or not investing in helping that person improve (and insuring they're receptive to it) is worth your time. But if you're leading ,or even a part of the group, it's best to make that call quickly - and in the rules to make that call respectfully.

But in general, life rarely works out 'as expected'. It's all in how we react to it.

[Jimmymagic]

Wow can we please talk about the topic and not how to treat others. There are plenty of other threads on ToS.

This is about conditions for entering the hardcore end game content raids and/or trials. Please can we talk about this I think the OP gave up on this already on this thread at least but my opinion this is a good topic and should bring some attention to the devs.

Qualifying for Savage, EX, and ultimate is great idea imo. Not just for the sake of keeping people out, but also keeping people in. Look I admit as some others have stated that this isn't for everybody. Some people like a more difficult challenge and should not be penalized for it. An instance qualification could render or at least give an idea to a player like me who wants to do the hardest content possible and gauge what I need to do to get better so I don't pug it up and create df drama and resentment.

AS far as the other stuff....No one can control other people only yourself and how you react..no more debate there...

Anyone else have a solution?

[Hyrist]

Wow can we please talk about the topic and not how to treat others[...]

AS far as the other stuff....No one can control other people only yourself and how you react..no more debate there...

Anyone else have a solution?

I'm game.

Sadly, I don't have a solution so much as a problem.

My fear with the instance situation is that doing so will measure one thing - how good you are at outputting DPS. The problem is that Sky Stone Sea does this already, and does this poorly. People have long since proven that they're over-tuned.

What I contest is that it does not properly test the right skills.

Having decent DPS, or knowing when to work your DPS into your Tank or Healing duties is one thing. Doing so under pressure is where most people falter, and most DPS especially fall short. If we're going to talk about gateway instances - I'd want them to have mechanics, not just a dummy to smack. Even better if they host a small preview of what mechanics to expect in the content they're going into.

Edit:

And if we're addressing the basics, I don't think it'd go remiss if Square Enix created an "Enemy Mechanic Indicator" addition to the Play Guide, as a quick reference points for things we take for granted, like Stack/Seperate Indicators, Gaze Attack Indicators - things you'd expect in most content on the non-savage level.