Parsing? Drama? ToS? Solution!

[Miracle_Diva]

And how is using parsers to optimise your output for the top-tier play analogous to the analogy contained in your meme, which relates to knowing the basic rules of the game? You can know the rules of chess without knowing all the grandmaster strategies. Don't conflate the two just because you like dunking on filthy casuals.

One thing is not to know all the *grandmaster strategies*.
Another thing is to play tic-tac-toe while others play chess.
Casuals are not so rainbow and butterflies themselves too. While it's ok not to be a *top tier* player, it's not ok to go into high end content and expect being carried because you're lazy since you've decided to play your own game.

[purgatori]

Their is quite the difference between "knowing the basics" and "not knowing a damn thing, and facerolling your keyboard, or not using half your kit."

The best example I can give is healers. You could post a thread about healing, and a good chunk of these forums would tell you that healers shouldn't/don't have to DPS, to play your own way, don't worry about DPSing at all - some would say that even for savage content.

I'm no where near a top-tier player, but it's things like that which ultimately end up pissing me off because a good chunk of the players are being fed this bullsh*t stupid "just play your way" thing. It's really not how the game works. You don't have to be a "elite toxic raider" to deal decent damage - you just need to read your tooltips, which is something a lot of people don't seems to be able to do. Hell, I'm not even parsing other players - but it's clear to me when someone is not playing their class correctly (mostly healers) and is basically griefing the party because "I'll play the way I want" or "you don't pay my sub".

The issues at hand aren't that the raiding player-base are expecting casual players to get in their level, it's that the playerbase that knows even the basics want people playing the level 80s in the DF to actually KNOW THE BASICS.

Just look at one of the posts above.



This is exactly why people get pissed off.
This is why we have Ice Mages, and non-dpsing healers.

These aren't elite raiding tactics, these are the basics, and that mentality has no place in a multiplayer game.

Which was exactly my point. There are many of us casuals who do know the basics, actively seek to improve, and yet aren't aiming to master the skills required for top-tier content. We play the game for fun, and have no interest in what a parser says about us, but we're not so daft that we neglect all but 3–4 of our skills or fail to output any kind of DPS while on healer. This is the sort of player that LaylaTsarra was describing, and yet you used the meme you did, implying that we don't even know what game we're playing.

[Hash_Browns]

Which was exactly my point. There are many of us casuals who do know the basics, actively seek to improve, and yet aren't aiming to master the skills required for top-tier content. We play the game for fun, and have no interest in what a parser says about us, but we're not so daft that we neglect all but 3–4 of our skills or fail to output any kind of DPS while on healer. This is the sort of player that LaylaTsarra was describing, and yet you used the meme you did, implying that we don't even know what game we're playing.

You're arguing thinking this is aimed at you then.

actively seek to improve,

=/=

I have no interest in improving my performance,

[KatCnaa]

Some of the proving grounds were almost impossible to clear as it forced the same trials on everyone. A single target based class couldn't beat the AoE test in time or an AoE based class couldn't burst down a target fast enough. Then you add in things like avoiding and kiting stuff that some classes would never be expected to do and thus it made the proving ground almost impossible for really stationary classes. I would also point to the striking dummies in game as it stands are horribly lopsided dependent on class as well, as I recall healer friends of mine noted the DPS check on the E1S dummy was insane.

Not to mention the dummy does exactly nothing to help you practice party heals. Just DPS. I have to 'borrow' a friend to go practice if there's something completely new I want to try. I'm grateful to said friends.

[DynnDiablos]

See this mentality is why we have issues like this in the first place.

If you have fun that way fine, but don't see it as wrong for others to not want to deal with someone who's brain dead in df every roulette.

Not sure how me playing for fun equals I am braid dead. I know basics dude, I can pull my weight. I am just not going to take this super seriously. It is a game after all. Also, I am not wiping parties or dying over and over either. Most of the mechanics of fights, especially in Dungeons are easy to maneuver.

[ForteNightshade]

I have no interest in improving my performance, I play this game for fun. The only time I do an EX trial or Savage is simply for the clear. Those of you who treat it all like a job need to seriously examine your priorities and lighten up a bit. In the end, it's a game. Expecting players to be banned from using the Duty Finder because you don't want to end up with a casual player, well, that's how you roll on the dice. You never know what you're going to get and that is the way it is. It's the serious raiders and parsers who should be making their own party in PF if they want to be elitist and keep people out.

Some people, don't want to know every little detail of the fights. Hell, I've done fights and dungeons multiple times and my short term memory pretty much wipes once I've done it.

And if you stayed out of Savage, there isn't much of an issue. Dungeons are brain dead content that barely require a pulse. When you venture into Savage with that attitude, your definition of fun may conflict with others, especially since your performance directly impacts the group's efficiency. If you couldn't care less to improve, and your damage reflects flippant demeanor. The remaining players have to compensate for it. Why is it okay for them to push out even more damage because you couldn't care less to improve yourself? If they shared the same attitude, you might not clear at all.

None of this is treating the game like a job, btw. Just because you fine optimization and improvement "work" doesn't mean others share your opinion. Speaking for myself, I find simply clearing Savage each week incredibly boring. What's the point of obtaining i470 gear unless I'm either aiming for better results and/or challenging Ultimate? But to each their own, I suppose.

[tdb]

Not sure how me playing for fun equals I am braid dead. I know basics dude, I can pull my weight. I am just not going to take this super seriously. It is a game after all. Also, I am not wiping parties or dying over and over either. Most of the mechanics of fights, especially in Dungeons are easy to maneuver.

Most people expect to hear "not taking it seriously" and "just having fun" from the sort of player who uses single target skills on mass pulls, or don't DPS as healer, or have no idea what tank stance means, or can't be bothered to step out of AoEs. If you actually can pull your weight in savages (meaning you meet the DPS requirement for clearing the fight and can use your cooldowns and healing abilities as appropriate for your role), you're already in the top 5% of this game's players, maybe higher. Beating the fight might not be a big deal of you, but that level of play requires some dedication for gearing yourself up, as well as focusing on the fight and putting some thought into your rotation. From the perspective of the "brain dead" category that is taking it seriously.

Edit: I should also note that "having fun" means different things for different people. For me fun is overcoming challenges, improving myself, and being useful to others. Making mistakes feels bad, so I naturally try to avoid them. For the lower end of casual players fun might be getting cheap laughs from whatever, so when confronted for their mistakes they use "having fun" as an excuse. It's not wrong to have fun, but it's prudent to be aware of what kind of impression the phrase gives to others on video game forums.

[Hyrist]

I've zero sympathy for anyone even implying a defense of harassing a player for poor performance.

If you wish not to play with someone because they are not preforming on par with your expectations or the requirement of the content - don't. Break the party, withdraw from the instance, whatever is required.

This preening of feathers and posturing moral or logical superiority is only being done because of a need of validation and the feeling of not wanting to take the penalty for leaving a group. But the truth of the matter is if you are so upset or frustrated that you cannot, in a healthy manner, engage an individual to assist in improving their performance, you are likely tilted and could use the break anyways. Take the time, breathe, hydrate, find someone who's better prepared for the content. All walks of life play the game, find those who's method and philosophy are similar to yours and leave others to find their own peers.

Arguing theoretical of how an individual who is performing poorly will behave or why they are performing poorly is just strawmen people use to manipulate debates their way. The truth is most times you'll never know the whole story. The moment you allow yourself to be heated, you are stepping into the wrong. That goes for all parties. Respect is the law of the land, and just because someone plays in a different way than you, does not automatically mean they are disrespecting you, even if they are under-preforming (Excepting of course if it is done to specifically harass you and/or your party). Part ways and move on. Networking is part of the process of multiplayer content.

Should go without saying at this point that Verified Channel Streamers in particular are now held to a higher standard in this case and should be very wary of that line - especially if they freely show off their parser.

Now full disclosure, I know there is a limit to how well I'll be able to preform, given the amount of time I play the game, and level of comfort I have with hard commitment requirements for content. I doubt I'll ever have my mind wrapped around an optimized opener or best rotation. (Though I might do something like adjust when I use my buffs in relation to a phase of Trial.) The cold calculations of an on-dummy parse won't catch the range of my ability and limits when it comes to adaptation. And I've no tolerance for those who will stick up their noses or rate others based off of how well they work against a damage meter. It, quite frankly, has encouraged a culture of harassment over the years on many games and in my opinion those who use it responsibly do not outweigh the impact of those who do not.

As far as a solution; short of raising the performance floor somehow for many jobs, I did like the suggestion of some sort of individual performance indicator on the Player's side for only their impact, within the content itself. How SE would go about that, however is vague and full of potential pitfalls. Perhaps just a personal DPS number indicator one can turn on that only shows their personal DPS. This could help people improve themselves moment to moment without needing third party tools. I don't feel that Sky Stone Sea is an accurate indicator, nor would an instanced gatekeeper be truly useful as they stand now.

[Angus-Beef]

Not sure how me playing for fun equals I am braid dead. I know basics dude, I can pull my weight. I am just not going to take this super seriously. It is a game after all. Also, I am not wiping parties or dying over and over either. Most of the mechanics of fights, especially in Dungeons are easy to maneuver.

I'm not saying you're wiping parties but there are plenty sadly plenty of people who used the same *I play for fun* as an excuse to not pull weight in runs.

This is something in Dungeons, EX trials, Savage, it's so common place now that it's sad. So again I don't see why it's fair for people in content that's meant to be a challenge to have to regularly see people not pulling their weight, say *I play games to have fun* and be the first ones who bitch about not being able to do savage yet have literally the rest of this game dumbed down for the sake of their inability to put together 2 braincells.

It might sound odd, this might come as a surprise but I have fun in ff to, but when a 15 min is turned into a 35 min run, because people can't be bothered to learn the basics, it's get really fucking old really quickly.

[Hyrist]

I'm not saying you're wiping parties but there are plenty sadly plenty of people who used the same *I play for fun* as an excuse to not pull weight in runs.

This is something in Dungeons, EX trials, Savage, it's so common place now that it's sad. So again I don't see why it's fair for people in content that's meant to be a challenge to have to regularly see people not pulling their weight, say *I play games to have fun* and be the first ones who bitch about not being able to do savage yet have literally the rest of this game dumbed down for the sake of their inability to put together 2 braincells.

It might sound odd, this might come as a surprise but I have fun in ff to, but when a 15 min is turned into a 35 min run, because people can't be bothered to learn the basics, it's get really fucking old really quickly.

Then it's on you to do better recruiting, be quicker to dismiss those you feel aren't improving or co-operating in a civil manner. It'll be on them to find a party that'll tolerate their performance or work with them to improve. Again, finding people that work well with you, is part of the game.