Parsing? Drama? ToS? Solution!

[Kleeya]

None of this is treating the game like a job, btw.

A group of mean people constantly scrutinizing each other with some software program, and shitting on the ones who doesn't reach a given productivity threeshold which keep getting higher and higher, definitely looks like one of my past irl jobs though XD

Some rotations guide i did see also awfully looks like some automated factory production cycle, aiming at the best productivity threeshold as well.

When you are dealing with this kind of things at work all day, and even see some people becoming burn out by it, you just sometimes dont want to see more of it at home, when you are launching a game to relax yourself.

[Angus-Beef]

Then it's on you to do better recruiting, be quicker to dismiss those you feel aren't improving or co-operating in a civil manner. It'll be on them to find a party that'll tolerate their performance or work with them to improve. Again, finding people that work well with you, is part of the game.

See I have the luck of not dealing with the pugs most of the time if at all, but it doesnt take away from my points given there are many of us who do.

But this isnt about my runs or Arthars, This is about people learning that making others do work for you is toxic in it of itself. This game needs something for people to weed out those who do not perform and the community should make sure those who do not seek to improve dont go in runs for Savage or EX trials.

DF is a mixed bag but thats solved by joining and or creating communities of competent players so you can avoid dealing with them. And yes while others and myself are capable of being civil and usually the ones being civil and offering help its usually met with some sarcastic remark or outright rudeness and then a 30 min penalty due to it not being worth the trouble.

And yet more and more content gets dumbed down, the people who do savage and ultimate only have around 5% of content in this game thats geared towards them, the people who want a challenge. Yet, at every turn there are people who want content to be dumbed down, classes to be dumbed down, runs to be dumbed down. This does affect the community at large. Again why should other give up what they find fun when all others have to do is Improve. That question is never answered. The defence is always made for those who dont consider others play styles or forms of fun, yet we always consider others and leave them be.

[Hyrist]

See I have the luck of not dealing with the pugs most of the time if at all, but it doesnt take away from my points given there are many of us who do.

But this isnt about my runs or Arthars, This is about people learning that making others do work for you is toxic in it of itself. This game needs something for people to weed out ...

Stopping you there. It's your responsibility to find people who work well with you. No one else's. You and I both reach the same conclusion in that method from opposing view points - play with people you know, limit your interactions with those you don't.

Another thing we can agree on: Toxicity is an attitude. Both extremes are complicit and implicit in this, and there are players of all performance levels that are toxic. You don't get to blame one group or another for that trait.

A toxic player who performs well is useless and painful to a group who's struggling and learning as they'll ridicule, posture, and waste everyone's time arguing.

A toxic player who performs poorly is useless and painful and wastes everyone's time by arguing and not seeking to improve.

The dominating majority of players are in-between these two extremes and are just frustrated by their experiences with these extremes. In the typical bad situation they'll see these extremes in normal, every day people, who are just trying to get by their day with a little less stress.

So, try being human with one another first, and see if that makes headway. If not, then find someone closer to your needs for enjoying the game.


As far as accusations that people 'dumbing down the game' in the face of those who seek a challenge - I'll be blunt. You're in the minority, and this is a number's game. The decisions made as far as the performance levels and content difficulty are made by the designers of the game and not us - and dollar signs will always hold greater weight than your or my opinions. They'll go with what keeps the game healthy from their perspective - regardless if one or both of us agree.

As far as skill goes. I tend to prefer more reaction based gameplay than rotational. I have attention maintenance issues I struggle against which does not serve me well for long rotation cycles, so I try to maintain a rhythm and fit it within the context of a fight. That's my compromise. I can't speak for others, nor should you. Most players I've encountered on all ranges generally do try to improve without added pressure, but will hiss and spit under scrutiny. Seeking to understand your peers is part of that networking skill that players seem to think they don't need in social games anymore.

[Angus-Beef]

Stopping you there. It's your responsibility to find people who work well with you. No one else's. You and I both reach the same conclusion in that method from opposing view points - play with people you know, limit your interactions with those you don't.

Another thing we can agree on: Toxicity is an attitude. Both extremes are complicit and implicit in this, and there are players of all performance levels that are toxic. You don't get to blame one group or another for that trait.

A toxic player who performs well is useless and painful to a group who's struggling and learning as they'll ridicule, posture, and waste everyone's time arguing.

A toxic player who performs poorly is useless and painful and wastes everyone's time by arguing and not seeking to improve.

The dominating majority of players are in-between these two extremes and are just frustrated by their experiences with these extremes. In the typical bad situation they'll see these extremes in normal, every day people, who are just trying to get by their day with a little less stress.

So, try being human with one another first, and see if that makes headway. If not, then find someone closer to your needs for enjoying the game.

I enjoy the game, but It'll be more fun when people take more self responsibility and learn which content for them, if they can't then I hope one day the those who do not seek to improve themselves never see a savage or EX trials until they do.

[Hash_Browns]

It's your responsibility to find people who work well with you. No one else's.

This comment is such a non-point.
It's not my responsibility, when I go into a PUG - to make sure each and every player is pulling at least the basics of their class in level 80 content.

That's on them.

It shouldn't be my job to call them out/kick them - it should be their job to join in the content when they understand the basics of the class they are playing.
Hell, you can't even call people out most of the time because you get put on blast.

Even attempting to kick AFKers in a MSQ roulette has gotten me attacked by people.
God forbid running into a DF couple.

[Hyrist]

I enjoy the game, but It'll be more fun when people take more self responsibility and learn which content for them, if they can't then I hope one day the those who do not seek to improve themselves never see a savage or EX trials until they do.

To be honest. That's the story already for most people who are at that threshold. There doesn't need to be added pressure needed there, and people who are telling horror stories are often leaving out their contributions to the toxicity of the situation, granted ther are a few well broadcasted few clear cut examples on either side to continue to fuel the often needless fire.

I've found that a proffered hand is far better than a shaken fist when it comes to seeking improvement from others, but no tool is universally successful.

[Hyrist]

This comment is such a non-point.
It's not my responsibility, when I go into a PUG - to make sure each and every player is pulling at least the basics of their class in level 80 content.

As a group leader, it is. Ultimately if someone show's up in poor gear without any seeming preparation and is obviously holding back the group, you should make that call. Otherwise, you're leaving that responsibility in the hands of others, and you lose control of the situation.

It shouldn't be my job to call them out/kick them - it should be their job to join in the content when they understand the basics of the class they are playing.

Real life experience in professional leadership fields should have taught you otherwise.

In any project, someone must be the spearhead - the person to take initiative. That person also assumes the mantle of responsibility as much as he possibly can. That also means handling disputes or performance issues. If you can't deal with that responsibility, don't lead. If you're not leading, you willingly sacrifice a measure of control of the situation, and your frustration is simply impotent.

As far as DF goes, that's a lottery you willingly subjugate yourself to if you're not going in with friends. You don't wade into the ocean without pausing to think of what might be out there to ruin your day, and if you don't then that's on you for not preparing yourself properly.

In the end this boils down to initiative, and the responsibility for taking it. Whether or not a person performs as expected is moot compared to the responsibilities of leadership, and the requirement to act according to the rules set in place that we accepted when playing the game.

You can't control people. You can't even fully control your chances with people you don't know. (Though you should try to use your best judgement.) You, can only control yourself. And when you allow yourself to lose control, you are responsible for that outburst, no one else.

I'm all for giving people more tools to improve themselves in game. But ultimately, that will only go so far. In the end this will always boil down to good old fashioned people skills. You have to have them, there's no excuse not to have them, and they superseded game performance issues in this situation every single time. If you find yourself grouping with people who don't have them, get out or get them out.

[Hash_Browns]

As a group leader, it is. Ultimately if someone show's up in poor gear without any seeming preparation and is obviously holding back the group, you should make that call. Otherwise, you're leaving that responsibility in the hands of others, and you lose control of the situation.



Real life experience in professional leadership fields should have taught you otherwise.

In any project, someone must be the spearhead - the person to take initiative. That person also assumes the mantle of responsibility as much as he possibly can. That also means handling disputes or performance issues. If you can't deal with that responsibility, don't lead. If you're not leading, you willingly sacrifice a measure of control of the situation, and your frustration is simply impotent.

As far as DF goes, that's a lottery you willingly subjugate yourself to if you're not going in with friends. You don't wade into the ocean without pausing to think of what might be out there to ruin your day, and if you don't then that's on you for not preparing yourself properly.

In the end this boils down to initiative, and the responsibility for taking it. Whether or not a person performs as expected is moot compared to the responsibilities of leadership, and the requirement to act according to the rules set in place that we accepted when playing the game.

You can't control people. You can't control your chances with people. You, can only control yourself. And when you allow yourself to lose control, you are responsible for that outburst, no one else.

I'm all for giving people more tools to improve themselves in game. But ultimately, that will only go so far. In the end this will always boil down to good old fashioned people skills. You have to have them, there's no excuse not to have them, and they superseded game performance issues in this situation every single time. If you find yourself grouping with people who don't have them, get out or get them out.

I really love that all of your points boil down to basically telling me that expecting the basics of understanding a multiplayer team-based game is all on my hands when my teammates don't know the basics.

It's really not, and this situation isn't this black-and-white.

I'm more so talking about the DF, as in the PF - well, I have a static for savage/EX content. If we join with anyone who isn't pulling even the basics, we will remove them.

Telling me that when i queue for the DF that if I get someone who doesn't know anything about the class they are playing, afking, doing whatever is what I signed up for - well that's a load of crap. That's not how it works. It's not my job to carry people, and honestly nothing can really change my mind on that. You're wrong. End of story.

[RyuSaarva]

I really love that all of your points boil down to basically telling me that expecting the basics of understanding a multiplayer team-based game is all on my hands when my teammates don't know the basics.

It's really not, and this situation isn't this black-and-white.

I'm more so talking about the DF, as in the PF - well, I have a static for savage/EX content. If we join with anyone who isn't pulling even the basics, we will remove them.

Telling me that when i queue for the DF that if I get someone who doesn't know anything about the class they are playing, afking, doing whatever is what I signed up for - well that's a load of crap. That's not how it works. It's not my job to carry people, and honestly nothing can really change my mind on that. You're wrong. End of story.

take your ragequit bonus then, everyone will have more fun when you are not complaining in the party chat.

[Hyrist]

I really love that all of your points boil down to basically telling me that expecting the basics of understanding a multiplayer team-based game is all on my hands when my teammates don't know the basics.

It's really not, and this situation isn't this black-and-white.

I'm more so talking about the DF, as in the PF - well, I have a static for savage/EX content. If we join with anyone who isn't pulling even the basics, we will remove them.

Telling me that when i queue for the DF that if I get someone who doesn't know anything about the class they are playing, afking, doing whatever is what I signed up for - well that's a load of crap. That's not how it works. It's not my job to carry people, and honestly nothing can really change my mind on that. You're wrong. End of story.

This is where I see you're not paying attention.

Nothing in what you said disagreed with my statements.

Let's break down the points:

It's the responsibility of the group leadership to make the call to remove members who are no preforming well or is no willing to improve - we agree here.

It is not your job to carry people who are under-performing. - We agree here as well.

You seem to think that me telling you that you have to be good at discerning whether or not a person will work with your group is the same as me telling you that you must accept every player walking in the door.

That's not what's being said here.

What's being said is that you (I'm guessing your static leader specifically) has to have the people skills to properly recruit and discern whether or not the person being added in your group is going to work well with the rest of his or her group. (usually this takes an attempt or few) That ultimately it's the responsibility of leadership to make those decisions.

It is also the responsibility of each and every member of the game, per the ToS, to be respectful of one another, and part ways when things don't work out, without harassing one another. Every other excuse you try to put into this is irrelevant to those points.

It is my opinion that most situations can be diffused with proper communication skills in this game.

So, let's be clear here - When you signed up for DF, you did sign up to occasionally run into that person who expects to be carried. But, you don't have to carry them. You DO have to not be rude about it, and that's not even my words - that's the ToS talking.