I'm not excited about the future patch at all. Just one dungeon?

[Shurrikhan]

Neat, its still subjective. But if you think its better, you can say so.
Kay.

His statements were that WoW has...

• More of an open world. Objectively true. Later zones, especially, are larger and more detail-dense while still having loading screens only between continents rather than zones. Anything that can be reached by foot or mount can be reached without a loading screen.
• A vast universe. This depends on one's benchmark. Relatively speaking, this would have favored XIV significantly until ShB. Now the two are close enough in total quantifiable depth (number of players greatly interested in the game's cosmology and how long it takes to know all of it) that it doesn't seem a strong point.
• Less time spent idle in cities. Objectively true, if only due to accessible and useful midcore content and far more time played required before even hitting a soft cap on 'done everything til next patch', rather than the quality of said content (which would be only subjectively true if so). Not a huge difference, however.
• More characters. Objectively true, even if not necessarily a big deal given how little either game does to detail any but a small central cast (and WoW doesn't even do that particularly well, often depending on out-of-game lore instead even for active characters and their motivations).
• More lore. Objectively true. Though also as one would expect from a game with almost a decade's head start.
• Better lore. Subjectively possible. Though we could detail out or sub-divide criteria enough that we could have an objective winner in each category, the weighting of each and therefore the overall quality will remain subjective.

Of those, only one is subjective. That's not to say I like WoW, on the whole, more than XIV, but let's not dismiss anything and everything as "subjective" when they are, themselves, quantifiable or a vast majority of players consider X in one game better than in the other (an objective measure of subjective opinions that can at least tell you which, on the whole, performs better in regards to X).

Edit: I wouldn't even bother pointing this out if the term wasn't so often used as dismissive deflection to shut down conversations before they can get to the more objective aspects of designs, often preventing discussion into the XIV ways could improve itself.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Snippet

I said its subjective to say Wow is better then FFXIV.
You can say it is, but that doesn't mean everyone agrees, and others may find things better about FFXIV then WoW or another game. All of that is based on people individually. Which means its subjective. Its an Opinion. And everyone has one.
Its not dismissive, its not used to shut anything down. I simply used the word as intended.

Also...
-He didn't say it has "More of an Open World" he just said open world.
A bigger map doesn't makes WoW better then FFXIV.
-The Vast Universe part is just lore. Every game has one, Real Life has one. Its subjective to think either one is better.
-The only reason you are idling in a city is if you aren't doing anything. Waiting for matchmaking? Both games you can do stuff while you wait. And Que times differ on content and on chosen Role.
-Wow has been around much longer then FFXIV, no-DUH it has more characters. Thats not a point that makes WoW better then FFXIV.
-More lore and Better lore is still Subjective. That depends on the person digesting the lore. Its as simple as that.

FFXIV sure as HECK can still be improved. This Subjective Objective conversation does not effect or stop the conversation that FFXIV can be improved and where it can be improved. But its not productive to keep saying WoW is better, and FFXIV needs to be like Wow.

[Shurrikhan]

I said its subjective to say WoW is better then FFXIV.

Indeed, it would be. But your response was made, bar one, to points which may be argued by objective means.

He didn't say it has "More of an Open World" he just said open world.

Which is a statement obviously given in relative terms. Vindictus, a dungeon-runner with a town hub can still be said to have "an open world", just because of its run from the first town to the second. Thus, "more of". Had I argued that it had an "open world", you'd likely just throw that semantic line at me. So I picked the quicker poison.

Neither "Open" nor "having (an open world)" are bimodal. How open it is depends on how seamlessly one can move through it and between its nominal zones. WoW is thus more open. Having an open world (as part and parcel of the overall game) refers to the % time played by a typical player in the open world as compared to parts of the game which are not the open world. In that, too, WoW sees more use of the open world, even if not necessarily by a significant amount.

-The only reason you are idling in a city is if you aren't doing anything. Waiting for matchmaking? Both games you can do stuff while you wait. And Que times differ on content and on chosen Role.

You've described any and all MMOs, except to the extent that they provide activities worth doing during the time spent in queue.

Wow has been around much longer than FFXIV, no-DUH it has more characters. Thats not a point that makes WoW better then FFXIV.

I never said it did. You mentioned that the individual points were subjective, when they are not. That is all.

More lore and Better lore is still Subjective. That depends on the person digesting the lore. Its as simple as that.

"More" can be rationalized and quantified. Only "better" is predominantly subjective.

But its not productive to keep saying WoW is better, and FFXIV needs to be like Wow.

Except the person you're referring to never said that FFXIV needs to be like WoW. They pointed out that since we're getting fewer dungeons now, it'd make sense to implement a system to make the dungeons we already have make more enjoyably reusable, similar to what Myth+ has done for WoW. They strongly hinted that in developing replayable systems for scaling or otherwise challenging content, WoW seems to have its priorities straight when compared to the XIV's insistence on putting out content that will only see lasting use as furnishings and glamours. That's not a "WoW's better, haha!" quip; that's pointing out where XIV's design priorities could use further consideration.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Indeed, it would be. But your response was made, bar one, to points which may be argued by objective means.


Which is a statement obviously given in relative terms. Vindictus, a dungeon-runner with a town hub can still be said to have "an open world", just because of its run from the first town to the second. Thus, "more of". Had I argued that it had an "open world", you'd likely just throw that semantic line at me. So I picked the quicker poison.

Neither "Open" nor "having (an open world)" are bimodal. How open it is depends on how seamlessly one can move through it and between its nominal zones. WoW is thus more open. Having an open world (as part and parcel of the overall game) refers to the % time played by a typical player in the open world as compared to parts of the game which are not the open world. In that, too, WoW sees more use of the open world, even if not necessarily by a significant amount.


You've described any and all MMOs, except to the extent that they provide activities worth doing during the time spent in queue.


I never said it did. You mentioned that the individual points were subjective, when they are not. That is all.


"More" can be rationalized and quantified. Only "better" is predominantly subjective.


Except the person you're referring to never said that FFXIV needs to be like WoW. They pointed out that since we're getting fewer dungeons now, it'd make sense to implement a system the dungeons we already have make more enjoyably reusable, similar to what Myth+ has done for WoW. They strongly hinted that in developing replayable systems for scaling or otherwise challenging content, WoW seems to have its priorities straight when compared to the XIV's insistence on putting out content that will only see lasting use as furnishings and glamours. That's not a "WoW's better, haha!" quip; that's pointing out where XIV's design priorities could use further consideration.

Your arguing individual points when the main point was "Its subjective to say X thing in WoW is better then X thing in FFXIV."
So even though I engaged you on a few of those points, remember what the MAIN point was.

[yukiiyuki]

Remember folks, wow bad, ffxiv good.
If you want more things - cancel your sub and go play WoW you scrub. Less dungeons is good thing, this way we can get more variety of things, like blue mage skills, or even new gold saucer fate! Who needs an interesting dungeons anyway? They will be boring after 100th run anyway, so better keep it wall-to-wall mob pulls and 3 bosses with 1 unique mechanic. On the other side, pulling mobs and clearing them is wasting too much time, better make dungeons just a bosses in a circle. But boys, we got umbrellas! Possibly in mogstation though.
Though WoW is garbage nowadays, art direction, style and good improvement of their own engine is what good left there, anything else I can describe as death knight pandas.

[Shurrikhan]

Your arguing individual points when the main point was "Its subjective to say WoW is better then FFXIV."
So even though I engaged you on a few of those points, remember what the MAIN point was.

The flow of comments, starting from the person to whom you were replying (and who first replied to him, followed by your joining the conversation in the fourth post):

1. "Perhaps we should consider (simple suggestion involving dungeon replayability)..."
2. "No, because you referenced WoW." (Implicit argument: WoW is inherently terrible, and any system which improved another game must be as terrible as that game, despite having improved it.)
3. Simple retort asking why a terrible game would have more players.
4. (Your first) WoW only owes its player count to its prestige (despite how much of its reputation is starkly negative, especially from those who have scarcely played it). It remains only because of its "Culture of a Game". (Implicit argument: that "Culture" is bad... else having that lasting culture would be exactly what any MMO hopes to achieve.)
5. *Suggests how easily a "Culture of a game" can be easily dismissed by how one frames that culture (e.g. merely showing off one's glamour in the capital city with quickest access to a market board as an endgame goal hardly makes XIV attractive, yet people could make a compelling point that it's what the game eventually boils down to) and that WoW may instead owe its longevity to its accumulated depth of world-story owed to its many years of activity, rather than merely cult worship.* Note: This is not a comment that "WoW is better," merely that the above snide arguments were as fallacious as they were snide.
6. "Even the amount of lore a game has is subjective!" (IA: Therefore there can be no way in which another MMO has a leg up over XIV, even if it's had an extra 8 years to get there.)
7. *Presents an example that proves the above laughably untrue, by showing that even a small side-section of the one MMO's lore has as much history as the whole of the other over 5 years' development.* Note: This is not a comment that "WoW is better," only that the volume of lore can to reasonable degree be objectively measured and therefore should not be dismissed merely as subjective.
8. ...

So on and so forth, with you arguing that any point on which another MMO might have something more than XIV should be dismissed as subjective, pulling ad hominems, and explicitly equating a generality about a community as fact applicable to its every member. Angus Beef at least goes into (a single line of) detail as to why Omy's suggestion would likely not be applicable to XIV if translated into the game verbatim, but ignores that Omy never asked that it be, all while slighting his ability to form any opinion as entirely biased (though, admittedly, he did the same at the first sign of deflection and implicit deprecation from the two of you).

But you know what was oddly absent from the conversation? At no point did anyone say that WoW was, on the whole, better. It was never the main point. You tried make it so, perhaps so you could more easily reduce and discredit his opinion, but it never was.

And let me clarify, lest I be similarly dismissed as having allegiances I do not have -- If I preferred WoW to XIV, I'd be there, not here. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be okay with anyone who references the game being tried as irredeemably biased, especially while they're the ones making fewer logical fallacies and doing less to twist the others' words. That's not okay. Imagine if this was the kind of things people looked at when forming the idea of what makes up the "XIV Culture". Give it a year of exaggeration and they'd come away thinking we're all conniving sycophants. Would you be so quick then to likewise call that over-generalization a fact?

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Snippet

Lol, that was an entertaining read....Ok, since you somehow aren't getting it and you're pulling all of this mes out of thin air, interpreting and twisting what Im saying and putting meaning behind what I said...which alot of people tend to do... Ill repeat it one more time.

Saying Wow is better then FFXIV, or any MMO is better then FFXIV, or Vice Versa, is Subjective.
It doesn't matter what you name X game has, everyone has a different opinion, they are different games, with their own systems and whatnot. Saying one is better then the other, is subjective: an opinion.
That word and how Im using it couldn't be any more simple and clear.

No...you are right, nobody in this thread said WoW is better then FFXIV. I misspoke when I said that. Even if they did, what nonsense goes in your head if you think I was trying to Discredit and reduce an opinion?! Oh hey, there is that Word. "Opinion" which is ALL l I was talking about in my statements.
I never once invalidated somebodies opinion. Somehow you think the word Subjective has all this power, when all it means, is an Opinion.

[Sloprano]

Ngl u sound salty, just dont play SCH and move on tbh, or quit.

Damn straight I'm salty. Been taking a pinch of salt expecting something good to happen, issues adressed or the very least acknowledged since 4.0, getting nothing but silence, regressions or statements that show no sign of the developers themselves playing it for any periode of time. Pinches turned to dashes, dashes turned to smidgens and two and a half year later sodium chloride levels are rivaling that of the Dead Sea. If there's any chance posting here will bestir a response then it's worth it.

Had I not had the past experience of the job or they'd be pulling this kind of design that'd be embarrasing for a 90's MMO from the start I'd not spared it a single thought more. But I know how good it can be and until it stops being more fun to write about previous than play current iteration in any capacity I will continue to do so, SE's ability to blank out issues be damned.

[Shurrikhan]

you are right, nobody in this thread said WoW is better then FFXIV.

Then why were you treating the guy as if he had when he hadn't? Why were you completely substituting the point of the posts with one of your own imagining? That does not make for honest discussion.

what nonsense goes in your head if you think I was trying to Discredit and reduce an opinion?

The aforementioned examples:

Obviously [they just want attention]. lol
Ive seen the arguments they start or get into

An ad hominem, dismissing this argument because the poster (or other WoW players) may have gotten into poor arguments in the past. He likely has -- I neither know nor care -- but if you read his responses carefully I see no reason why one should expect from this thread that his comments are trolling or utterly biased, even if he obviously has different preferences (which you've already said are fine to have).

The Cliche [unpopular opinions are because of trolling] is fact.

An overgeneralization. I can see why it'd be situationally warranted, but this isn't quite that.

You've been running bait-and-switch* for about half of your responses (*pretending the person you're replying to is replying either to the content or implication of either your most recent post or one previous at will in whichever way benefits you most or the person you're arguing with the least -- or otherwise just assuming the worst, to the same effect). Maybe you're both reading into each other too much -- or, maybe too little -- but you have been taking steps to discredit that opinion in ways that aren't terribly fair, intentionally or not. (I've doubtless done the same in some unintended way, but that's coming from simply having hit quote of quote until I reached the start of the conversation and trying to figure out how A reached Z while not particularly liking WoW either.)

Tl;dr: Can we please take a step back and consider for a moment that someone mentioning a successful feature from another game does not necessarily (or even likely) mean they want to turn XIV into whichever MMO that feature comes from. I'd like to see some decent flight physics (because they just simply feel and look awesome when flying about the world), for instance, but that certainly doesn't mean I want to turn XIV into a flight simulator or an aerial combat ARPG. Moreover, can we at least attack the weak points of the feature's fit to XIV rather than that of the MMO it comes from. The topic is, after all, the feature, not its source. Attacking the source only sends to conversation to Narnia and (only rarely) back.

Are you gonna just ignore the fact I said I misspoke?

That's why I wrote what I did. Someone else saying it in another thread is not the same thing as the person you're talking to having said it. They need only say it. You do not need to heap the ideas of others onto them. If that's the point they want to make, they'll say it themselves, or at the very least they'll make their dog whistles a whole lot more audible for you.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Then why were treating the guy as if he had when he hadn't? Why were you completely substituting the point of the posts with one of your own imagining? That does not make for honest discussion.

Are you gonna just ignore the fact I said I misspoke? I guess you just really need to win....or something. I dont know why your hardcore defending this guy like I attacked him.
And if he feels attacked, he can defend himself, Im sure he doesn't need you to talk for him.

-Sigh- Know what, Im not gonna bother replying to anything else you typed. Its just alot of Nonsense and you twisting what Im saying to fit your argument.
Not worth it if your just gonna twist it. Telling me Im discrediting someone actually does irritate me, because I haven't done that once. And if your Argument is the Whole "He wants attention" post, then I dont think you were reading very well. That or you think that post erases every time I tried to take the middle road and just say "Its Subjective - Liking X thing doesn't mean its Better then Y thing"
I can't wait for you to twist that.

And Ill end this by pointing out that I dont think you are reading my posts. That or you are purposefully ignoring them when they aren't something you can twist and attack me for. I said
"FFXIV sure as HECK can still be improved. This Subjective Objective conversation does not effect or stop the conversation that FFXIV can be improved and where it can be improved"