Crossover events and breaking immersion

[Alleo]

Wrong, that's the point of a crossover. When the hell did FFXIV decide Neir was apart of its universe prior to ShB? Oh right, it didn't, because its a crossover lol. That's like saying the monster hunter event was bad because random palico posts a hunt poster on the board and shows up suddenly. Wrong, the whole point of a crossover is that they've never been apart of the world before until then.

And the difference between something like Yokai and Nier is, that one is a limited event and the other is a fixed part of the story. (And monster hunter got us mostly just one monster that could have come from the new world and other than that there is not much to it) That is for some of us a bit too much. FF14 is already a pool of references and fanservice, for some of us it would have been nice if at least the main stuff was mostly free of this. But now they have gone beyond that. And who knows what could possibly even come in the future with this.

Would you be fine with such a raid if it was something you did not like?

Again if they had just brought over Nier as some normal limited crossover I would have been fine.

[Shurrikhan]

Not sure what you mean. I explicitly stated that I am not judging the nier story integration until the 3rd raid is out.

And I'm saying that makes no sense to use as a basis for whether something is objectively (or as near to that as possible) lacking in some aspect or not. People do judge parts 1 and 2 of a trilogy, and not just after the trilogy is complete. All the more so if that trilogy is added to a franchise that has no habit of great twists or open-ended openings.

I just pointed out that there is precedent on both sides for multiple dimensions and hopping between them, so the crossover doesn't contradict either worlds rules.

But there's a difference between a foreshadowed (albeit dimension-hopping) weapon crash landing somewhere and hiding a city in a hill some tenth its size. Consider it even just a matter of scale (just as one is left to wonder how all those warrior Xaela tribes can be so close to each other) or thematic lead-in (as ShB reiterates and compounds between ambiguity to conviction, but only vaguely touches over to what we see in NieR, simply because none of those connections were made obvious despite that it'd have cost nothing to make them so, only a bit more time and intelligent writing). They're simple areas which can be done well, or any degree of less well. There's no compromise to the Yoko Taro special style/ingredient/what-have-you.

Wrong, that's the point of a crossover. When the hell did FFXIV decide Neir was apart of its universe prior to ShB? Oh right, it didn't, because its a crossover lol.

Midargardsomr is not NieR, and is the only thing I mentioned as part of XIV's story, so... where is that strawman coming from?. "Even if I'd have preferred Yoko Taro work his magic on an actual XIV plotline" does not state that he already created any part of XIV story. The only connection I spitballed, no where near the post you replied to even, was the Light Waste, which likewise did not exist prior to ShB.

That's like saying the monster hunter event was bad because random palico posts a hunt poster on the board and shows up suddenly. Wrong, the whole point of a crossover is that they've never been apart of the world before until then.

...Of all the examples, you choose that one? A dragon (established species) in the Azim Steppe (an established location) presented through a hunt board (an established means) to present a fight in a near-copy of the first boss area (an established fight) and includes aldegoat charges (an established mechanic), as an example of how a crossover does not benefit from connecting itself to the game through the whatever the game already have? They clearly thought differently, even if only to save costs at the time.

[Omymy]

Crossover breaks your immersion in a game where tanks wears bikinis and slim lizards uses swords even bigger than their bodies.

Mhm.

[Lersayil]

And I'm saying that makes no sense to use as a basis for whether something is objectively (or as near to that as possible) lacking in some aspect or not. People do judge parts 1 and 2 of a trilogy, and not just after the trilogy is complete. All the more so if that trilogy is added to a franchise that has no habit of great twists or open-ended openings.

So your issue is that... its a different type of story telling that in your subjective opinion doesn't fit the game, because its not episodic enough? I disagree, but I won't argue with that, since its a valid oppinion to have. I don't mind at all if we only get answers in our third raid, since I view it as a single story given out in parts, not singular episodes of a trilogy.

But there's a difference between a foreshadowed (albeit dimension-hopping) weapon crash landing somewhere and hiding a city in a hill some tenth its size. Consider it even just a matter of scale (just as one is left to wonder how all those warrior Xaela tribes can be so close to each other) or thematic lead-in (as ShB reiterates and compounds between ambiguity to conviction, but only vaguely touches over to what we see in NieR, simply because none of those connections were made obvious despite that it'd have cost nothing to make them so, only a bit more time and intelligent writing). They're simple areas which can be done well, or any degree of less well. There's no compromise to the Yoko Taro special style/ingredient/what-have-you.

Sorry, but you are kind of rambling so I don't quite understand your point. All previous alliance raids were very self contained stories, with barely any foreshadowing, and (as far as I remember) only one validated in MSQ later.

We currently have no explanation or timetable about the Nier raid, when and how the factory came to be on the First, or how its connected to the Nier world. But both worlds have a history of weird dimension traveling shenanigans, so unless we get absolutely no explanation later, its fine for now.

Also, I was personally thinking of Gilgamesh, not Omega, since it wasnt confirmed (as far as I know) that he's the same Omega as its past iterations.

[Lauront]

I actually don't mind the "out-of-place-ness" of Omega's bosses anywhere near as much as Ivalice/NieR, because each battle is self-contained and you don't need the attached lore in the same way. Enter the battle, whatever weirdness of the setting is contained to that boss arena, return to reality at the end of it. It doesn't have to integrate into the main setting, and I can appreciate that as a way of including some bosses that people want to see, without trying to work them into the overall lore of the game.

I dislike Ivalice because it's too much of a lore dump via text rather than by playing and learning the world of a game as you go. The characters just aren't enjoyable or likeable enough from what we see of them here. It felt out of place at the time, and forcing too much of a new setting into the world rather than integrating into it and revealing new information about things established in the wider game (ie. Allag and Mhach in the previous raids). Though I suppose there's Goug, and whatever they're going to do with the Tartarus rift...

And NieR.... I've already written about this, but I dislike having a crossover as a permanent alliance raid rather than a temporary event. (Monster Hunter already did the permanent thing, of course, but there's nothing lore-shaking about that - just yet another dragon and a Hrothgar kid some kind of minor race from vaguely-elsewhere.) I don't know how heavily they're going to integrate NieR lore into the game because of this, but so far alliance raids do have further impact on the game world beyond their immediate story, and I don't like the prospect of this coming from a crossover with a non-FF game. It's not about whether the settings can be integrated, it's the principle of it - and what else they might cross over in future. (I think I'd be equally unhappy about this if it was a franchise I did like. Possibly more if I didn't like what it was doing to the other story setting as well.)

They're taking their sweet time with Construct 7... I had thought it may be the device Gaius was alluding to, but it doesn't appear to be following today's patch news. Will Zenos do anything with it? The Garlean legions? Or is it going to be forgotten? We'll see.

[Shurrikhan]

So your issue is that... its a different type of story telling that in your subjective opinion doesn't fit the game, because its not episodic enough?

No. I've not even called XIV episodic. Where is that even coming from? My preference is the opposite, if anything. Crossovers prior to NieR have all been attached linked into existing systems or plot-lines in a way that didn't feel disconnected. XIV might be the nexus for anything and everything, but at least prior attachments were all grafted on by more than a senseless modicum of "went somewhere; therefore, surprise city that can't possibly fit where it is". Monster Hunter is just one more dragon, attached to our hunt system -- basically just the DRG 70 quest fight. Ivalice is one more location in which Garlemald had committed atrocities and from which we might get new information. Omega Weapon may be a dimension-jumping weapon, but it'd been there from the start, given context as far back as in 1.x.

The other raids have not only been led up to Crystal Tower was our first real introduction to the Allagans, and makes use of the central landmark of the ARR trailer, even. The World of Darkness was our first dive into the 13th. (But surely that's never come up in multiple cutscenes even in this very expansion, multiple job quests in ARR, or as far back as 1.x MSQ and world events...?) The Mhachi raids and its dungeon counterparts gave us a further look into Eorzea's history as mentioned in 1.x content, the idea that white/holy magic isn't always righteous/good, and a reminder of the strength of the element(al)s, the fatalistic cycles of boon and ruin that run through Eorzea's history (which is again played on further in 5.x), and that tone of sublime mortality before nature from 1.x. Those aren't disparate. Episodic? Perhaps, but they do as an episode should as a part of a larger series -- they deepened XIV's own content and lore, rather than dismissing it in favor of something flashier.

Sorry, but you are kind of rambling so I don't quite understand your point.

Then let me repeat myself more plainly. There are some things that objectively improve storytelling: having likable characters, having those characters develop in a way that extends and deepens engagement, having a setting that makes sense enough to engage with it both emotionally and through prediction, continuity, etc., etc.

You've mentioned that NieR shouldn't be judged for not connecting itself well to XIV because it's NieR and not XIV, but... this is XIV. That's not to say that NieR has to be any less itself once we enter it, but it ought to at least be connected well enough. Recruiting two bomb-loving brats so we can go down a mine shaft and somehow find an entire city that, despite flight, no one's ever noticed before is not a sufficient connection. There were plenty of thematic grafts available to them, but they cheaped out. So I hope they'll do a better job in parts 2 and 3. Even then, though, making a great final part doesn't somehow make parts 1 and 2 retroactively great. So I really hope that in the future they'll take the time to connect things well from the start. That's all.

I don't mind crossovers per se. I just dislike shoddy connections.

[MikkoAkure]

I don't mind crossovers per se. I just dislike shoddy connections.

The Ivalice raid series being thrown in the game already broke canon. Due to the timelines and locations not matching up, they had to say that Dalmasca was actually taken over later than what three lore book says and they moved city to a different continent and had to say it was actually “Nhalmasque” they were talking about.

Not much in this game is planned out from the very beginning and a lot of what you mentioned are retroactively welded to the canon. In Tanaka’s 1.0, the Allagans were snail-eating onion knights who built long-lasting brick roads and were famous for adventurers. Porting FF3 into the game changed that.

In 1.0, there was no talk at all about shards and the void was just a bad place of negative energy. They just retconned it later on in Heavensward to be a shard.

In 1.0, there was no Amdapor or Mhach. Which confuses the timelines since they had dunesfolk lalafell, which in 1.0 originate from a desert island south of Eorzea and moved to Thanalan because it reminded them of home. The whole newer ARR thing with the ages has already confused things a bit since in 1.0, it was common knowledge that the elezen were in Eorzea first and the hyur invaded after. So how do we know that but also be living on top of ruined civilizations we barely know anything about? I thought that may have been a retcon, yet that whole scenario remains on the First where there were no calamities.

This whole game is being written by the seat of their pants. There isn’t much of a master plan and everything is being connected after the fact. Yoshi even admitted as such in one of the interviews ahead of ShB. In 4 years time, it’s possible that something to do with the NieR raid connects to a new expansion. Just give it time.

[Valic]

Would you be fine with such a raid if it was something you did not like?

There ain't much I don't like tbh... I guess I just like the game and its ideas?

Midargardsomr is not NieR, and is the only thing I mentioned as part of XIV's story, so... where is that strawman coming from?. "Even if I'd have preferred Yoko Taro work his magic on an actual XIV plotline" does not state that he already created any part of XIV story. The only connection I spitballed, no where near the post you replied to even, was the Light Waste, which likewise did not exist prior to ShB.


...Of all the examples, you choose that one? A dragon (established species) in the Azim Steppe (an established location) presented through a hunt board (an established means) to present a fight in a near-copy of the first boss area (an established fight) and includes aldegoat charges (an established mechanic), as an example of how a crossover does not benefit from connecting itself to the game through the whatever the game already have? They clearly thought differently, even if only to save costs at the time.

Tbh, I think I gave up on this thread a while back. The people who dont like what we got are gonna stay stubborn to it. I enjoyed both the Neir raid and the MHW crossover... They fit fine, they're told well enough, and they're fun. Personally, I don't need much more than that... But I'm also a believer that life is too short to get upset over how a scantily dressed android woman can be apart of a series where we have silly talking fish and dimensional crossover left and right.

I guess all I'm saying here is... Go ahead and dislike it? It's only doing yourself in to choose to see it in a bad light. I don't see them changing anything about it and I find a lot of people enjoy the crossover thus far... I personally love that they're implementing these ideas and taking advantage of them, because I have never seen content manage to successfully pull off these sorta things in an mmo. If I ever am skeptical of anything they put in, I usually get over it when I realize how much effort was put into it all. Yokai watch included, not a fan of it at all... but eh.... could be worse things and it's semi-enjoyable, and its not even canon so /shrug.

[RyuSaarva]

Crossover breaks your immersion in a game where tanks wears bikinis and slim lizards uses swords even bigger than their bodies.

Mhm.

actually my immersion breaks when tank gets hit and won't die, let's just turn this into a one hit kill game and create a block system.

[Iscah]

...and its not even canon so /shrug.

Whether or not it's canon is yet to be seen.

It's a crossover with another franchise, which so far have not been canon outside of their isolated, usually-temporary quests.

But it's also an alliance raid, which so far have been canon to and provided additional information about the wider FFXIV setting (Allag, the Crystal Tower, Mhach, Goug as the predecessors of the Garlean race, more details about how auracite works) as a permanent and integrated part of the wider story. They are part of "the canon version" of what our character has achieved, when referenced by static sources outside of the game such as the lorebook and side stories.

So, is NieR automatically "not canon" because it's a crossover, or is it canon because it's an alliance raid? We don't know yet... and some of us are wary of that.