Tank Balance Patch next pls? Nascent Flash Target Requirement Removed Pls

[Ultimatecalibur]

Your logic is very incorrect.

No, it isn't due to the diminishing returns on stacking mitigation and relative amounts of damage healed. A 10% mitigation ability used on a tank is in actuality only a 7.5% increase in mitigation, and the "insignificant" amounts of healing/shielding NF and HoS+Brutal Shell generate outside of burst phases are much more significant on Healers and DpS. The mitigation gained from using these abilities on your Co-Tank is less than the mitigation gained from a full Tenacity build.

HoS, Intervention, TBN and NF are only really useful for the other tank because they are constantly subject to damage and especially high amounts of damage in the case of a tankbuster. Yes, there are cases where you can use these on a non-tank and it will help ( Covering preys, TBN a DoT's damage, etc.), but they only really help out a cotank as it allows mitigation sharing and support.

No, there is no piece of content (even in the Ultimates) that needs one tank to use their abilities to protect the other tank. The whole mentality of the use of these abilities on the other tank is built off of the use of Cover to cheese various mechanics in ARR, HW and ShB; especially the uses of Cover in ShB to turn it into an extra Rampart on the other tank. All using these abilities on the other tank really does is make the Healers overheal a bit.

Also the current Savage design forces both tanks to mitigate tank busters at roughly the same time (or have one tank Invuln the multi buster).

Tanks have better ways of shielding the party ( PoA, Reprisal, D.Missionary, SiO, HoL, DV).

PoA, Reprisal, D.Missionary, SiO, HoL and DV are all full party mitigation. Intervention, Cover, HoS, TBN and NF are all single target mitigation.

Just because Tanks have high natural defense and mitigation is no reason for you to help out your cotank ( again, by your logic I should eat tankbusters naked with no defense CDs because " my fending armor gives me high enough mitigation who cares"). By helping the cotank, you in turn help the healers by reducing incoming tank damage strain.

First off, I never said that. You should always be mitigation tank busters with one of your Primary mitigation cooldowns (Rampart, the job's 30%, or their Invuln).

Second, all 5 of the single target protect other abilities come at the cost of each tank's personal mitigation when used on others: Intervention and Cover share resource gauge with Shelltron, HoS and TBN can only be used on the tank or a party member never both at the same time, and RI and NF share a cooldown.

Does this mean you can't use it on other ppl? No. But these buttons aren't purely designed to shield DPS or healer, they're mainly meant to help out the cotank. You can share mitigation with intervention, give a fat shield with TBN, give small mitigation and shielding with HoS, and small mitigation and some healing with NF. And it benefits the tank since they're taking autos and can help with mitigating tankbusters.

As I said due to current content design you are not helping with the tank busters because you are getting smacked with one at the same time/ consecutively. You can't use HoS, TBN or RI/NF to mitigate the damage of Spear of Paradise, Shadowflame, Rip Current or Stone Crusher on both tanks.

Auto Attacks have for a long time been superfluous and any increase in mitigation will not reduce the amount healed on the tanks. If it did, Tenacity would be considered a good stat.

[Kabooa]

No, it isn't due to the diminishing returns on stacking mitigation and relative amounts of damage healed.

The game uses multiplicative mitigation. 10% mitigation is 10% mitigation. If you take 50% less damage and then take 10% less, you are taking 10% less of the 50% remaining. This looks like less but it's equivalent on everyone, because of how it works with EHP.

If you have 100 hp, and have 50% mitigation, you effectively have 200 HP ("Effective Health Points").
If you have 100 hp and have 55% mitigation, you effectively have 220 HP - A 10% gain.

Further, because "Effective HP" isn't the same as actual HP, healing on targets with higher mitigation totals is more effective. The 50 Heal on a 50% mitigation target is worth "100 EHP".

Using example numbers

Tanks have 40% mitigation naturally and DPS have 20%. If both have 100 HP, the tank has 172 EHP and the DPS has 125 EHP.

A 20 heal on the tank is worth 34.8 and a 20 heal on the DPS is worth 25.

If the Tank gains an additional 10% mitigation, it has 46%. If the DPS gains an additional 10% mitigation, it has 28%.

a 20 heal on the tank is worth 38.28 and a 20 heal on the DPS is worth 27.5.

[Conando]

Tanks are a lot more balanced than they’ve ever been, though. It’s come down to personal preference this time around. The difference in damage between them is minimal, none have weak defenses, and in fact Warrior has the STRONGEST defenses right now. I’d say the only issue is WAR is pigeonholed into MT because of the relative weakness of Flash in comparison to the other tanks’ similar skill, though Shake It Off is still QUITE nice.

[BarretOblivion]

Tanks are a lot more balanced than they’ve ever been, though. It’s come down to personal preference this time around. The difference in damage between them is minimal, none have weak defenses, and in fact Warrior has the STRONGEST defenses right now. I’d say the only issue is WAR is pigeonholed into MT because of the relative weakness of Flash in comparison to the other tanks’ similar skill, though Shake It Off is still QUITE nice.

Yeah but... WAR is by far the least played tank at least in end game content by a wide margin compared to the other tanks which are relatively around the same numbers. Tanks might be 'balanced' between each other but that doesn't mean they are all enjoyable to play baised on community play choices nor does it mean the tank role itself is balanced.

[whiskeybravo]

Yeah but... WAR is by far the least played tank at least in end game content by a wide margin compared to the other tanks which are relatively around the same numbers. Tanks might be 'balanced' between each other but that doesn't mean they are all enjoyable to play baised on community play choices nor does it mean the tank role itself is balanced.

I mean, a new tank being introduced has nothing to do with it? Perhaps some people were just tired of playing WAR after all this time, especially considering it didn't really evolve all that much for this expansion. I'm not saying that "a new tank" is the only metric effecting tank numbers, but it's worth tossing it in there as a consideration. WAR didn't really get worse as much as it may just be getting old. Even if its damage was closer to, or exceeding, GNB a lot of people would still be playing GNB, PLD and (probably to a lesser extent) DRK because of the evolution of their kits. I don't think WAR's usage would spike if they merely got a damage increase. IMO that doesn't leave much room for any argument about "tank balance" because balance-wise they're actually quite alright. It simply has more to do with a new job and it's new playstyle, nice improvements to PLD playstyle and interest in DRK re-work while WAR simply sits back mashing the same buttons it's been mashing for the last 3-4 years.

[Talam]

while WAR simply sits back mashing the same buttons it's been mashing for the last 3-4 years.

Yea... I mean, the biggest change to WAR came from HW, when we got fell cleave, and everything since then has revolved around getting as many fell cleaves as you can while berserk/inner release is up.

Don't get me wrong, I love WAR, because I loved being a big tough guy with an axe and the ability to self-sustain. But Shadowbringers has kind of cut into that identity hard and with that gone, the actual mechanics of WAR is not very interesting.

[Lyth]

...

There were a lot of people in previous expansions who played WAR not because it was fun or aesthetically interesting, but because it was mandatory.

[Aurelius2625]

So many bads that don't understand how to use their cooldowns, and fundamentally don't understand tanking.

Aurora is fantastic when paired with Superbolide, it's also besides NF the only CD that you can toss on someone to heal them that is always 1200 potency. Aurora is for sustain, not for instant heals, which is better than equilibrium since you usually save Eq for something big, versus using it on CD to smooth out auto damage, which, if you even cared to learn about tanking, autos are far more damage than anything else a tank receives over the course of the fight.

NF is amazing, anyone who says different is a fool who can't use it properly. it's meant to be paired with heavy hitting GCDs like IC, or during IR, or when you have gauge to burn during raid buff windows. The amount of healing is absurd that you can achieve - FOR FREE. PLD, beyond prog, should never clemency, it's an enormous decrease in damage if you do so.

Perhaps use your cooldowns properly? Dunno what to tell you.

[NyneSwordz]

So many bads that don't understand how to use their cooldowns, and fundamentally don't understand tanking.

Aurora is fantastic when paired with Superbolide, it's also besides NF the only CD that you can toss on someone to heal them that is always 1200 potency. Aurora is for sustain, not for instant heals, which is better than equilibrium since you usually save Eq for something big, versus using it on CD to smooth out auto damage, which, if you even cared to learn about tanking, autos are far more damage than anything else a tank receives over the course of the fight.

NF is amazing, anyone who says different is a fool who can't use it properly. it's meant to be paired with heavy hitting GCDs like IC, or during IR, or when you have gauge to burn during raid buff windows. The amount of healing is absurd that you can achieve - FOR FREE. PLD, beyond prog, should never clemency, it's an enormous decrease in damage if you do so.

Perhaps use your cooldowns properly? Dunno what to tell you.

No one says NF as a heal sucks. The party target requirement sucks and should be removed.

Its clear to me that nf is an action meant ot be used in dungeons or solo, so just remove the party target req to make that less cumbersome.

Or if se never intended it to be used solo, in which case they should remove the self heal entirely just to make it clear.

Or do other workarounds to give the war some of the self healing back which made them fun. Make give ic/cc some healing which was lost with ib and sc. Or something.

[Satarn]

Its clear to me that nf is an action meant ot be used in dungeons or solo, so just remove the party target req to make that less cumbersome.

How in the hell is it meant to be used solo when it's literally impossible to use it while solo?
The dungeon part kind of makes sense, although you could really use some perspective by doing something outside of just dungeons. Skills aren't really designed to be used just in one type of content.

Or if se never intended it to be used solo, in which case they should remove the self heal entirely just to make it clear.

Oh no, god forbid we have a skill that can be used for more than one thing, war brain is gonna get too confused with all the options. It's supposed to be both an OT support skill and a heal for you, why is it so hard to wrap your head around?

Like, I'm with you on that it'd be great if they added self targeting option for NF like DRG eye, but damn your arguments are nonsense. Actual nonsense.

Or do other workarounds to give the war some of the self healing back which made them fun. Make give ic/cc some healing which was lost with ib and sc. Or something.

Actually I think NF as opposed to old Bloodbath is pretty damn fun and super fitting for the job. For once WAR's short burst dmg focused offense, synergizes with their survivability and that's a fantastic concept. With decent timing you can get great health returns without making it too op like some past iterations and unlike having automatic heal attached to your regular attacks, it rewards good skill use.