Tank Balance Patch next pls? Nascent Flash Target Requirement Removed Pls

[NyneSwordz]

Just reposting my complaint from PvP forums to here... since it applies to PvP as well. And in the past, PvP changes have preceded similar changes to PvE actions.

Nascent Flash party target requirement is so bad. Imagine a paladin not being able to use clemency to heal himself because there aren't any party members close by. Or having to summon a chocobo so he can heal himself with clemency.

I don't know why they did this. If clemency, aurora, tbn, and intervention can be used without a party target required, WHY PLACE THAT REQUIREMENT ON NASCENT FLASH?

I. Just. Don't. Get. It.

I hate it so much. I don't even want wars to be "better" than other tanks, I just want to be able to use my actions when I want to use them without restrictions other tanks are not subject to.

It's been four months and this annoying, and unnecessary restriction is still here. Why?!

It's so bad for Frontlines PvP. All tanks have a 30 sec party targetABLE defensive action. TBN (15 secs but it costs resources), aurora, intervention, and Nascent Flash. These actions are super powerful and potent defensive actions which are at the core of the tank kit. By that, I mean it accounts for 1/3 of how a tank is a tank in PvP (healing from attacks, 30 sec party targetable def action, and 60 sec partywide defensive action). And Nascent Flash is the only one with a party target requirement rendering the action unuseable on self when a party member is not close by (even alliance members CANNOT be targeted with Nascent Flash - has to be PARTY).

PvP Potions DO NOT make up for this.

In PvE, Equilibrium DOES NOT make up for this. Especially since Wars lost healing from inner beast. I mean, Wars lost Bloodbath, then Inner Beast, and now we get some self-sustain back which is great, but why attach this annoying restriction to it?

It's been 4 months, and yes, I appreciate all the content updates. But now that several patches have EXTENSIVELY addressed healers and dps (not that I think all the issues have been fixed for those roles), can we please get a patch which extensively looks at tank issues. This recent patch even overhauled crafters (the new ui looks beautiful). So can we get a patch focusing on tanks. Pls?

Not just for Warriors, but for all tanks of course.

But chief among the things I want addressed for Warriors is this ridiculous, unnecessary, clunky restriction on Nascent Flash. Again, If clemency, aurora, tbn, and intervention can be used without a party target required, WHY PLACE THAT REQUIREMENT ON NASCENT FLASH?


Also, Mythril Tempest comboing into Steel Cyclone in PvP is one of my favorite changes for Wars in PvP. Please bring this to PvE.

Taking a break until I see some meaningful tank adjustments. Also, I appreciate that all tanks are "balanced" right now, that is good. But please, fun is important too. And QoL of improvements like removing this unnecessary restriction on Nascent Flash and making War AOE 360 insteal of Conal would be make the game more fun for me and I'm sure for quite a few others (you made rockbreaker for Monk 360 instead of conal in this patch!) Please make a meaningful pass on tanks in the next patch.

Thank you.

[BarretOblivion]

Intervention requires a target bud.

[Shurrikhan]

But chief among the things I want addressed for Warriors is this ridiculous, unnecessary, clunky restriction on Nascent Flash. Again, [B] If clemency, aurora, tbn, and intervention can be used without a party target required, WHY PLACE THAT REQUIREMENT ON NASCENT FLASH?

Because Clemency is an emergency tool rather than a CD, Aurora is just a job-unique bonus CD (perhaps to make up for the weakness of HoS and Camo), TBN functions identically on self and target unlike HoS* and Clemency, and Intervention DOES require a party target.

But, agreed, NF shouldn't require a target, and ideally Shelltron and Intervention could be rolled into one key if they just inflicted separate charges.

[TheForce]

Intervention requires a target bud.

As does divine veil :/

[Carstien]

I think you and everybody complaining about Nascent is just thinking of the skill in a way that's baffling to me. I'll start by saying yeah, it's annoying when you can't use it because your group is dead.

That's not what the skill is for though. You're thinking of it like a cooldown, it isn't, it's half a cooldown. It's the half of tbn that you can target other players with, the half of heart of stone. It's not clemency, it's intervention. You're not meant to have another free cooldown choice. That's how we use it now, for the part that heals us but I think it would serve us right if the devs just took the self healing off it and left it as a heal and mitigation for a partner.

You have a skill you can use solo, it's raw intuition. The half of this pair that you're meant to use like that.

[VenKitsune]

I think you and everybody complaining about Nascent is just thinking of the skill in a way that's baffling to me. I'll start by saying yeah, it's annoying when you can't use it because your group is dead.

That's not what the skill is for though. You're thinking of it like a cooldown, it isn't, it's half a cooldown. It's the half of tbn that you can target other players with, the half of heart of stone. It's not clemency, it's intervention. You're not meant to have another free cooldown choice. That's how we use it now, for the part that heals us but I think it would serve us right if the devs just took the self healing off it and left it as a heal and mitigation for a partner.

You have a skill you can use solo, it's raw intuition. The half of this pair that you're meant to use like that.

Agreed. NF is a co-tank support skill, not a cooldown.

snip

NF is terrible as personal mitigation compared to RI.
WAR already has the best personal mitigation tools out of all the tanks in the game right now. Rampart, same as always. Vengeance? Same as all the other tanks...But gives a benefit if you're MT, it hits the enemy back. RI? a 25 second cooldown rampart...which is honestly huge. Thrill and equilibrium is also instant cast, no cost healing that also functions as a mini cooldown by providing you with Defiances old bonuses ON TOP of the 20% mitigation tank mastery trait provides.

Warrior is by far the strongest DEFENSIVE tank in the game right now, staying true to its ORIGINAL 2.x identity which was so rudely ripped from it with fell cleave came out, and the tank meta changed in 3.x to be "drop tank stance you scrub"

TBN doesn't need a target because they dont have a stronger, personal only version like WAR's RI. RI is meant for yourself, NF for co-tank, there is a reason they share a cooldown. Its not like you can put TBN on yourself AND your co-tank within the same cooldown.
Intervention requires a target, and costs the same ammount as sheltron.
Aurora doesn't count - GNB's self healing without it would be so pathetic healers would hate playing with them. Aurora simply gives the option of giving some healing, that would otherwise be reserved for them, to another person. Oh, and Aurora is the SAME potency as Equilibrium...And you can't give Equilibrium to anyone but yourself...So why are you complaining when you're ignoring this? You're literally arguing against yourself here.

Bottom line? If you're the only one who needs mitigation, use RI. NF is TERRIBLE for your own benefit, as it should be, its meant as a co-tank support skill and to give you viable utility to be considered to be a part of the meta.

If they wanted it to be "balanced" they could simply remove NF from the game and allow you to cast RI on other people. Would that make you happy? Removing a unique and kinda weak skill in favour of yet less "button bloat"? The cooldown shared between NF and RI is there so you have to make a choice, and creates the skill ceiling we have today. Removing the Target requirement would be pointless, NF is not designed as a personal cooldown and shouldn't be treated as such, and not only just because RI is stronger by almost twice as much.

PLD was underused in 3.x because it had a bad rep considering it couldnt block magic damage, and so was "hated" - in 4.x DRK was underused because again, bad rep and so was hated because of its lack of group utility compared to the other tanks. In ShB? ALL tanks are used and all fulfill different sub-roles. Be grateful you're still relevant.

Oh, also, any talk about PvP is entirely irrelevant as its separately balanced with seperate potencies and weights, nevermind used in completely different scenarios and best discussed on the pvp forums, yes?

[JoHighnes]

Imagine if they removed clemency and instead added an effect to intervention where you get healed when you use intervention on an ally. Then told you it isn't a cooldown for you, it is only there for party support. That is where warrior is at.

[VenKitsune]

Imagine if they removed clemency and instead added an effect to intervention where you get healed when you use intervention on an ally. Then told you it isn't a cooldown for you, it is only there for party support. That is where warrior is at.

Why does everyone forget about Equilibrium?

Aurora? 1200 total potency over its duration.
Clemency? 1200 total potency, more with Requiescat.
Equilibrium? 1200 total potency. WAR also has Thrill, which can also increase the effectiveness of Equilibrium and also a heal in its own that scales with gear exponentially owing to it being a percentage.
(DRK has nothing...cough)

The Difference? Aurora and Clemency can be cast on other people (Clemency makes you loose damage)...Equilibrium can't....And yet people are annoyed NF, a weaker skill than RI that also shares its cooldown, can only be used as party support but their 1200 potency heal CANT but use the other tanks 1200 potency heals as an arguing point against warrior....I dont get it. Soooo...Where is your argument? WAR already has more healing skills than the other tanks, on paper and in a vacuum, as everyone seems to want to compare them in.

[xJimmehx]

Why does everyone forget about Equilibrium?

Aurora? 1200 total potency over its duration.
Clemency? 1200 total potency, more with Requiescat.
Equilibrium? 1200 total potency. WAR also has Thrill, which can also increase the effectiveness of Equilibrium and also a heal in its own that scales with gear exponentially owing to it being a percentage.
(DRK has nothing...cough)

The Difference? Aurora and Clemency can be cast on other people (Clemency makes you loose damage)...Equilibrium can't....And yet people are annoyed NF, a weaker skill than RI that also shares its cooldown, can only be used as party support but their 1200 potency heal CANT but use the other tanks 1200 potency heals as an arguing point against warrior....I dont get it. Soooo...Where is your argument? WAR already has more healing skills than the other tanks, on paper and in a vacuum, as everyone seems to want to compare them in.

Some of this is just my personal opinion, but using NF doesnt feel good. Thats the argument id like to make. You have to swap target, apply NF, swap back to enemy, burst as fast as possible. It feels kinda clunky and is very different for people who have played WAR a long time. We used to just pop bloodbath and spam bursts.

Also Clemency can be used like 4 times in a row... Aurora is weak but lasts a long time. So its not actually that good either. Its only really useful for throwing on others or making the healers job a little easier but lets be honest. The regen affect is so small if you were going to die without it you will probably die with it anyways. If you arent topped off and arent getting hit, then great, top off with it, but otherwise.. dont depend on it in most situations. Its not an "Oh-sh@# button" like Clemency, Thrill+Equilibrium. Equilibrium and thrill also have large cooldowns. NF is like every 25(20 or 25? idr) seconds.

If you check certain resources you will find that war self sustain is actually pretty low when compared to other tanks. I also wouldnt compare too much to other tanks to determine if NF is "good enough" personally, but I would focus on how it feels and right now its not fun to stop what im doing to setup a nf-heal-burst combo. Macros help of course, but if nobody is alive and you are being aoe'd it would be nice to have. Even if you arent being hit during something like a 24man where you are OT, You could slowly build that hp back up with NF but nope. Youre team is dead and you cant even apply it to somebody from a different alliance. How does RI help you when you arent being hit but need to recover some hp from a few of those weaker raid wide aoes? Just wait for thrill/Equ to pop a few times...and hope you dont get hit beforehand.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

That's not what [Nascent Flash] is for though. You're thinking of it like a cooldown, it isn't, it's half a cooldown. It's the half of tbn that you can target other players with, the half of heart of stone. It's not clemency, it's intervention.

By what authority can you claim that though? As designed, Nascent Flash functions as both a personal cooldown and an off-tank support cooldown. Comparing it to the other off-tank support cooldowns is misguided because it's not like the other off-tank support cooldowns.

You're not meant to have another free cooldown choice.

Again, by what authority can you claim that? The fact of the matter is that WAR has a cooldown choice between Nascent Flash and Raw Intuition. Is that a problem, for some reason?

That's how we use it now, for the part that heals us but I think it would serve us right if the devs just took the self healing off it and left it as a heal and mitigation for a partner.

Why though? Nascent Flash is powerful and is one of the few remaining abilities that produces a synergy between offense and defense.

In the absence of a job balance issue, removing the self-healing component of Nascent Flash will only make WAR less interesting; I can't fathom why anyone would suggest or support such a change.