Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

[Callinon]

You’re wrong about that, it’s actually quite a lot of people, lol. Don’t make baseless assumptions about things you know nothing about. “0.01%”, apparently you work at square Enix now. :P

Do you? You're making the same claim.

Honestly.. real talk.. something I see you doing A LOT in all these threads where you're going on about this is speaking for a group of people.

Don't do that.

You have every right to speak for yourself and what you want. You have every right to present your own opinions and your own wishes. You do not have the right to speak for a group that hasn't elected you to do that, and I recall no election among The Hardcore™ naming you as leader.

This is a habit people tend to have when speaking on message boards like this. You want to sound like you have the backing of many people because it makes your argument sound better. This is known as argumentum ad populum and is a well-known logical fallacy. The solution boils down to this: speak for yourself, and only yourself unless you've actually been elected to speak for other people.

[CookiesNCreams]

Do you? You're making the same claim.

Honestly.. real talk.. something I see you doing A LOT in all these threads where you're going on about this is speaking for a group of people.

Don't do that.

You have every right to speak for yourself and what you want. You have every right to present your own opinions and your own wishes. You do not have the right to speak for a group that hasn't elected you to do that, and I recall no election among The Hardcore™ naming you as leader.

This is a habit people tend to have when speaking on message boards like this. You want to sound like you have the backing of many people because it makes your argument sound better. This is known as argumentum ad populum and is a well-known logical fallacy. The solution boils down to this: speak for yourself, and only yourself unless you've actually been elected to speak for other people.

Um, no, I won’t stop doing it. It’s because it’s safe to say my opinion is shared among other hardcore players in this game. Do I really need to show proof? Look at the videos (and comments) I posted in that YouTube link on the previous page. Also, since you really want to go there, about posts, your posts mostly seem to want to argue/debate with me over a topic we simply cannot and will not agree on. So agreeing to disagree is the best course of action. I have known many of hardcore crafters before 4.0 happened, and after 4.0, they somehow vanished?

Even have emails from these friends saying they quit because the crafting got too child-friendly and became a joke, so they played PSO2 or BDO. It’s really sad to see how a lot of these players do not post on the forums due to a cancelled subscription, or simply because they believe their voice will be instantly shut down by people such as yourself. That’s why I’m here. Doesn’t matter what you throw at me, I’m still going to bring this topic up until it’s resolved by Square somehow. Be it Ishgard or endgame recipes. Doesn’t matter, needs to be resolved. I know threads and posts like these anger folks like you I’m guessing, but, sorry, we need some content too.

So you can throw that “Don’t do that.” somewhere else.

boy, speaking as someone who has a computing science degree and has done some coding, what a pain in the ass to code

Oh cool. I’ve only done modest amounts of reverse engineering, such as PPC/Assembly and some JSON. No degree though, need more extra money to attend college again. :P Anyways, nobody has statistical data on subscriptions in FFXIV from 2016 - Now, unless you’re trying to tell me you somehow do. :P My point is, it’s disingenuous and quite pretentious to imply less than 1% of crafters quit because of crafting’s nerfs. It’s most definitely higher than that.

It’s simply because hardcore players are not very vocal on the forums whereas casual players are extremely vocal and post on a consistent basis. My mission is to do the same, and get this issue worked out. That’s all.

[Callinon]

Um, no, I won’t stop doing it. It’s because it’s safe to say my opinion is shared among other hardcore players in this game. Do I really need to show proof? Look at the videos (and comments) I posted in that YouTube link on the previous page. Also, since you really want to go there, about posts, your posts mostly seem to want to argue/debate with me over a topic we simply cannot and will not agree on. So agreeing to disagree is the best course of action. I have known many of hardcore crafters before 4.0 happened, and after 4.0, they somehow vanished?

And those people can speak for themselves too, just as I speak only for myself and do not attempt to invoke a silent population as you've done and are doing even now.

You have emails from friends who've quit because they didn't like how the crafting game developed. Ok. That's fair. So you have hard data that what? 6 people? 12? Have quit because they didn't like where crafting was going. You're trying to back your speech up with numbers you don't have... unless you'd like to present some data we can verify so that we know you actually represent a group of people?

Also I'm confused by one thing... PSO2? They didn't like FFXIV's crafting... so they went to PSO2? Because what?

Don't get me wrong there. I like PSO2 a lot. It's fun as hell, and I'm looking forward to the announced English release so I don't have to play it with a translation patch and 200ms ping. That'll be awesome. But the crafting in that game is dirt simple AND relies entirely on RNG to achieve any kind of useful result. Is that better? Because it sure didn't seem better to me. It's a side activity at best. And it's on strict cooldowns.

[Talam]

Anyways, nobody has statistical data on subscriptions in FFXIV from 2016 - Now, unless you’re trying to tell me you somehow do. :P My point is, it’s disingenuous and quite pretentious to imply less than 1% of crafters quit because of crafting’s nerfs. It’s most definitely higher than that.

So in the same paragraph, you say that nobody has statistical data on subscriptions, but then suggest that more than 1% of crafters quit because of the crafting changes. Do you not see the inherent contradiction here?

[CookiesNCreams]

So in the same paragraph, you say that nobody has statistical data on subscriptions, but then suggest that more than 1% of crafters quit because of the crafting changes. Do you not see the inherent contradiction here?

That’s called using common sense and an educated guess based on what you’ve seen. I have actually known plenty of hardcore crafters before they quit across 3 servers, and I have not seen them since. So, based on using common sense, the average person can surmise that unfortunately, it’s likely the norm for these types of players.

You’re trying to imply you can prove me wrong, even though you have not known very many hardcore crafters personally, if, at all? Which, you likely do not. As far as I’m concerned, we’re in the same boat. Except one person is a hardcore crafter/knows hardcore crafters, and one does not. Sounds kind of silly if that’s what you’re suggesting. Look back at what I said and see who’s really contradicting here.

[Jojoya]

That’s called using common sense and an educated guess based on what you’ve seen. I have actually known plenty of hardcore crafters before they quit across 3 servers, and I have not seen them since. So, based on using common sense, the average person can surmise that unfortunately, it’s likely the norm for these types of players.

You’re trying to imply you can prove me wrong, even though you have not known very many hardcore crafters personally, if, at all? Which, you likely do not. Sounds kind of silly if that’s what you’re suggesting. Look back at what I said and see who’s really contradicting here.

So you know a relative handful of crafters who quit playing because they feel crafting isn't hardcore enough.

Okay. That's their choice. People quit playing games all the time for whatever reasons suit their fancy.

Why they were expecting things to be more difficult this patch is beyond me. SE told us that the Ishgard leaderboards were going to be the crafter/gatherer end game and more difficult recipes would be getting added later in the expansion. They were pretty clear that this patch was about making crafting and gathering more accessible to the general player base, and giving us an introduction to the Ishgard systems so we could get used to them before the leaderboards start (probably in 5.2).

Complain all you want for now. It's not going to change anything. SE has their plan in place for introducing more challenging content for crafters. Until it's implemented into the game so we can see and evaluate what they came up with, you're just blowing a lot of useless hot air over things that were never intended to be about you in the first place.

[CookiesNCreams]

Complain all you want for now. It's not going to change anything. SE has their plan in place for introducing more challenging content for crafters. Until it's implemented into the game so we can see and evaluate what they came up with, you're just blowing a lot of useless hot air over things that were never intended to be about you in the first place.

Since you really want to go there, crafting was originally not intended for players such as yourself, to be honest. Look back in 2.0 ARR. (not 1.0) How was crafting then? You think you could just pick up a rotation you found online and start slamming HQ endgame recipes like it’s cake? You think you could just get guaranteed HQ touches on a craft and everything will be just fine and dandy? You think you can only spend a few hours grinding for master books?

No.

Crafting originally, was intended for a serious player base. It was only until 4.0 where Yoshida kind of shilled out and turned it into a casual only thing. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, sorry. I just find it funny how you really believe this was intended for players like you, it wasn’t. Debate with me all you want, it’s not going to go anywhere. It. Wasn’t. Intended. For. You. They changed it in 4.0 to make it so. Which, is fine.

Just don’t be selfish and try to push out the people who jumped on crafting since 2.0. They deserve content too. And like I said, this thread is basically a protest and an awareness thread for that. If Ishgard will meet our needs, this thread will die overtime. If it doesn’t, expect to see this thread for the next year or so.

[Jojoya]

Since you really want to go there, crafting was originally not intended for players such as yourself, to be honest.

You don't know anything about me so you probably shouldn't go there.

Just don’t be selfish and try to push out the people who jumped on crafting since 2.0. They deserve content too. And like I said, this thread is basically a protest and an awareness thread for that. If Ishgard will meet our needs, this thread will die overtime. If it doesn’t, expect to see this thread for the next year or so.

I'm not the one trying to push others out. Nowhere have I said that all crafting should be easy mode.

You're the one who wants to push others out.

[Talam]

That’s called using common sense and an educated guess based on what you’ve seen. I have actually known plenty of hardcore crafters before they quit across 3 servers, and I have not seen them since. So, based on using common sense, the average person can surmise that unfortunately, it’s likely the norm for these types of players.

You’re trying to imply you can prove me wrong, even though you have not known very many hardcore crafters personally, if, at all? Which, you likely do not. As far as I’m concerned, we’re in the same boat. Except one person is a hardcore crafter/knows hardcore crafters, and one does not. Sounds kind of silly if that’s what you’re suggesting. Look back at what I said and see who’s really contradicting here.

That's not common sense, that's confirmation bias. You've decided that since you knew hardcore crafters who no longer play, with some of them telling you that they were quitting because of the crafting changes, that all of them had to quit over crafting changes and that this normal for the majority of hardcore crafters.

What I'm trying to do is point out that the foundation of your arguments based on 'knowing people' is shaky at best. You haven't provided any real numbers as to how many hardcore crafters you did know, not even ballpark figures. You didn't provide how many of them talked to you about their quitting due to the crafting changes, and no one has numbers on how many players actually engage in crafting, let alone how many qualify as hardcore. Have you even conducted a survey across multiple sites like the official forums here and reddit?

All I've read so far is a whole lot of opinions and people trying to push opinions as facts. If anyone is going to semi-seriously throw out numbers or pass themselves off as an authority, they should have actual findable data and research to back it up.

[Callinon]

If anyone is going to semi-seriously throw out numbers or pass themselves off as an authority, they should have actual findable data and research to back it up.

If that information exists, only SE has it. And I rather doubt even they have it broken down by "hardcore" crafter unsubs vs other unsubs.