A good old boyish cott

[Maeka]

why are you all stuck on this retarded mindset that what we just ask for a simple "add us more damage skill buttons and nothing else" and also being scared shit from that.
its about making the healers downtime fun and adding dps skills isn't the only way to do it,we want more flavor in the classes and more meanings,so get out of that fear that if you press more then 1 button it will ruin everything and kill you.

Because a lot of people whoa re going on and on about healers being "boring" ask for "more DPS buttons" and "I don't want to use the same 1 damage and 1 dot button over and over again" which means they want an actual DPS rotation.

The rest of us who just want to heal and throw a little damage when we get the chance to, don't want a DPS Rotation that is going to be broken up constantly by the need to keep people alive, nor do I want to be dropping dead when somebody else is playing the healer and they are focusing too heavily on the rotation.... like.... "I know the tank is 30% health but I am 1 button away from finishing this rotation!" and the tank drops dead before he can squeeze that last button out and THEN cast a heal.

people ask for having their class fun and meaningful not being a snooze fest and having a kit that fit a mindless bot.
there is no depth to the kits and they are all identical,one class being simple is fine but all 3 being identical and especially have the other 2 with 0 depth is not ok with me.

They tried having the playstyles more varied in Stormblood and it led to severe job discrepancy. Everybody laughed at WHM in Stormblood, and AST reigned king because of the ridiculous buffs.

SCH is a summoner support class with arcanist roots, people who played it found it fun having pets to use especially more then 1.
would it be that bad to have scholar maybe keep his arcanist kit or just keep carbuncle that badly if they gutted out eos and selene like that and if implemented right it wont even add buttons.

Why do you want Carbuncle as a healer? What purpose would that actually solve? Does it really matter which pet you have out? That doesn't change your gameplay at all.

SCH concept is being a tactical support pet class,it was meant to be a bit more challenging then the other healers so having a slightly more tactical aspect like more then 1 dots or having an engaging pet interactions like having more then 1 pet with different skills and a bit of swapping actions would kill you that badly?

You point out to Yoshi-P or any other dev saying that SCH is "meant to be a bit more challenging than the other healers". Go ahead, I'm waiting.

AST concept is reading his fate with his cards and applying various buffs to his members, even with the oversimplified card system, would it had been that hard to redesign the cards that they will have different buffs and each would feel good to use in some way instead of all of them being the same buff and especially a low damage one at that.and if you find it too difficult to comprehend then how about just change divination to be more meaningful with the different seals. AST was not only for those who like to give different buffs, it also was meant for those who like some sort of RNG mechanic to it, you still have that RNG but would it kill you so much to have buff diversity to it as well.

The old AST cards were just too powerful. Everybody "had to have" these buffs, and AST was asked for again and again, and there were times that I Q'd up as WHM and they go "meh no buffs" just because I'm a WHM and not an AST. It was clear we had a problem with AST being too OP. So they decided to tone the buffs down, and instead of the different cards being different buffs, they made it so you had to get 3 different types of cards for the best Divination.

there need to be a different in them ,in their play style and most importantly there need to be depth(meaning) you play them especially during downtime.

So basically you're asking for more buttons to push while not healing, which is..... exactly what the people arguing against this DON'T want.

trying to play optimaly is fine but gutting identities and excusing it for the sake of optimal play is just wrong.
if complexity in a healers scares you that much,just play the simpler healer job among them(a.k.a WHM) and drop the other 2 ,there is a reason why there are 3 different healers or at least should be after all.

Yeah, until you show up in a group and you get kicked just for being a WHM, or people grumble and look at you like you're playing the wrong job, and/or you wanna be a WHM in manual group finder and nobody will invite you because there are ASTs and SCHs listed at the same time.

[Maeka]

you know its because the new AST system isn't controller friendly and not because its complex right?

if you want more details ,from what i read it is because of how sleeve draw works and not because of how "complex" the system is,so i guess thats what he meant by "carpal tunnel inducing"

I wouldn't know; I use a keyboard and mouse. *shrug*

[Rhais]

But even when you're doing Duty Finder, or you post on these forums that you don't do Savage, you still get people in your face going "YOU'RE NOT CLIPPING oGCDs! LOOK AT THOSE DPS SPELLS YOU MISSED! YOU MISSED A GCD BECAUSE YOU WERE 0.5s LATE WITH THAT CAST!" like it's top percentile you're supposed to be chasing in Duty Finder.

This just isn't true at all though, this kind of thing never gets said in dungeons, people aren't going around telling healers they need to be in the top percentile in everything they do.
What does happen is sometimes people will say throw some damage out because otherwise you are doing nothing since rate of damage is so low little actual healing is needed. Help the party instead of standing there watching or healing a tank that is at 95% HP. Though most cases it may be noted but nothing ends up being said.
Things really only get said when healers try to justify doing nothing when healing isn't required, when there really is no justification for it.

[Maeka]

This just isn't true at all though, this kind of thing never gets said in dungeons, people aren't going around telling healers they need to be in the top percentile in everything they do.
What does happen is sometimes people will say throw some damage out because otherwise you are doing nothing since rate of damage is so low little actual healing is needed. Help the party instead of standing there watching or healing a tank that is at 95% HP. Though most cases it may be noted but nothing ends up being said.
Things really only get said when healers try to justify doing nothing when healing isn't required, when there really is no justification for it.

No, but I have seen that kind of thing said on forums when I share gameplay footage, asking for some "general suggestions" when I specify I am NOT looking for Optimization, but rather more "beginner's" suggestions. Always get the Elitist crowd who talks about doing things to try to push that 1% DPS like I'm on tryouts for Savage Raiding.

I have seen in groups where people would sometimes scoff at not enough DPS, though. I wasn't doing zero DPS, but I will admit at the time, things were dying too fast for me to bother with Aero III (this was back in Stormblood). "Why no Aero III?" "Because the mobs die in less than 10 seconds?" *shrug*

[CrimsonGunner]

Because a lot of people whoa re going on and on about healers being "boring" ask for "more DPS buttons"...

it also means they want an actual thing to do during their downtime,that is their major complain.

don't want a DPS Rotation that is going to be broken up constantly by the need to keep people alive, nor do I want to be dropping dead when somebody else is playing the healer and they are focusing too heavily on the rotation...

as you said before ,we are healers first and then we throw damage little as it may be it also something that you do during the times you don't heal you want to use 1 dps skill instead of a rotation fine but why all the healers are subjected to that mentality, why 1/2 of them cant have a simple dps rotation the other/s will be left with 1 button to press then?

Everybody laughed at WHM in Stormblood, and AST reigned king because of the ridiculous buffs.

then just means they didn't do it good enough, you can still have balance and have unique and fun playstyles with appropriate buffs as well appropriate potencies,cds and appropriate skills.
tuning down isn't the same as gutting everything out considering that WHM has suffered even before SB and got some of his skills gutted as well.

Why do you want Carbuncle as a healer? What purpose would that actually solve? Does it really matter which pet you have out? That doesn't change your gameplay at all.

using different pets means using them for different things, it definitely does matter especially since if they gutted most of scholar dots and removed selene then having a pet especially having an assault pet instead could be more interesting then applying a dot since instead of being a dot mage your a pet class mage.

You point out to Yoshi-P or any other dev saying that SCH is "meant to be a bit more challenging than the other healers". Go ahead, I'm waiting.

that why we are posting and giving feedback so you don't need to wait.

So they decided to tone the buffs down, and instead of the different cards being different buffs, they made it so you had to get 3 different types of cards for the best Divination.

again ,that isn't tuning down, all the cards were butchered to be 1 identical card with 6 different colors with a buff that hardly matters and the best of divination not only small but you get 1% increase for each different seal so every card you throw is almost meaningless for it. so again what fun about this?
also just cause the old buffs were too strong,doesn't mean SE couldn't tune down the effects while keeping the playstyle and fun intact with proper balance that wouldn't hurt WHM.

[CrimsonGunner]

So basically you're asking for more buttons to push while not healing, which is..... exactly what the people arguing against this DON'T want.

again 1 class being simple is fine but why all of them need to be like that cause you just want to hit 1 button.
also i already gave you example as things can still be fun while you still pushing the same button again and again,so stop with this stupid chicken mentality.

Yeah, until you show up in a group and you get kicked just for being a WHM, or people grumble and look at you like you're playing the wrong job...

[/QUOTE]

they were probably already assholes and jackass and i will say to them:" screw you guys ,i am playing what i want to play"

[Billythepancake]

snip

I have to ask, where are people meeting these so called "toxic elitists" in game? Outside of very specific circles and on some Savage pugs, I have not met 1 person in a dungeon or regular content that was such in the 3000 hours I have logged into this game. People seem to think this is a major problem, but I genuinely don't see it, most Savage raiders I've met don't care about optimizing outside of raids. I also have to ask, is it an elitist a-hole problem, or a problem of people unable to accept criticism? I remember a dungeon run a few months ago I had with a WHM I was running as DRK, saw him spamming cure for every auto,so I thought I could stop and give him advice, not my exact words but it's close "hey man, you don't gotta heal me for every single auto I take,I can really a few hits and be fine. If anything, just watch for me to hit about 50%, or if you're uncomfortable with that go for 60-70, and then heal me. In the meantime don't be afraid to do some DPS" and he TORE into me, how DARE I call him bad (I didn't) I don't pay his sub, what if he DOESN'T want to play the same way as everyone else,blah blah. In his eyes I was a toxic elitist, despite all me doing was trying to help him improve as a player. Ever since I've given up on helping people unless they ask, screw it, not worth trying to get chewed out and possibly reported because I just wanted to help. And that's what I find tends to be the Issue, people unable to hear something they're doing is wrong, or that they could be doing better.

And ah yes, the classic "if you want to DPS then go play a DPS argument", honestly it doesn't deserve a response but I'll respond anyway. I play a healer because I enjoy the responsibility of healing. I also enjoy feeling engaged and the minimal healing that is required on top of the extremely simplified DPS options we have, with nothing else to do, leads to an unengaging experience, specifically for those who choose to improve at the game, which should never be the case. I ask for more complexity in my job, not DPS in particular. DPS options would make the most sense, and is the easiest to implement so yes, I do bring it up the most, but I'd be fine with the complexity being elsewhere so long as it gives me something to do in my downtime. I do not ask for less healing downtime because both classes and game design are not equipped for such a thing outside of a massive rework on the level of ARR. I ask for classes to be better designed for the current design of the game because it's the most efficient and effective way to handle the problem.

[Billythepancake]

...but yet you call AST "carpal tunnel inducing", lol.

Which is it, you want to be doing things constantly, or you don't.

Honestly, you people don't seem like you can make up your mind.

I want to do things that do not require me to have to get 4 cards out within 4 GCDs on top of weaving in a possible Earthly star. There is a medium between having way too much to do and having almost nothing to do, it is not one or the other.

[Darkpaw]

Radio silence... like how throughout stormblood mch’s got no word yet we got a massive rework in 5.0 and we didnt find out until a few months before.

This boycott thing needs to stop. It wont succeed and what you are calling for doesnt punish se, it punishes players and the community in general, what it advocates is you feel so entitled to your opinion that you are willing to destroy the enjoyment of the greater community by denying them access to new content.

How many of us are excited for the new alliance raid or the new msq dungeon? People have been so excited for the nier raid. People who pay just as much as you do to play and enjoy this game. And boycotts like this just scream out. “Our enjoyment of the game is more important than anyone else’s.” Whether thats intended or not isnt the point. Thats what it boils down to.

One last point FFXIV is not square enix’s primary source of income so even if subs did drop off it would not get you the result you seek. Make a concentrated thread. Find middle ground with those who are unsatisfied and those who are. Make calm rational criticisms. Be a force they cant ignore and stop resorting to tantrum tactics.

[Saefinn]

I find my AST controller set up works quite well and doesn't feel like carpal tunnel. But to make it work, I highly recommend extended crossbars, they take a little getting used to at first, but can make more fluid to access more abilities. Though I think if they removed 1 or 2 buttons (like with what they're doing with Arcana I believe) then my set up will be more streamline.

The point is, optimal play IS that important to a lot of people, even if they aren't that skilled a player themselves. Currently I'm comfortable with DPS as a healer even in Eden4 which, for me, is a duty that needs a lot of concentration to deal with mechanics. If you increase complexity of my DPS rotation, something is going to give. I will struggle to learn the next new fight because I'll be worrying about being judged for non-optimal play ( how many DPS or get kicked posts have we seen right here?) and I'll end up losing my confidence and going back to doing no content that involves other people.

Maybe if people would stop mistreating healers who are somewhat lesser-skilled, who can't handle the increased complexity, who keep people alive, but do less-than-optimal DPS to achieve that, then maybe people like the person you quoted wouldn't mind an extra DoT button, or an extra DPS button.

But even when you're doing Duty Finder, or you post on these forums that you don't do Savage, you still get people in your face going "YOU'RE NOT CLIPPING oGCDs! LOOK AT THOSE DPS SPELLS YOU MISSED! YOU MISSED A GCD BECAUSE YOU WERE 0.5s LATE WITH THAT CAST!" like it's top percentile you're supposed to be chasing in Duty Finder.

The elitist crowd only have themselves to blame.

I, too, don't think healers need to be any more complex with DPS. DPS should be a secondary task to keeping people alive. We are healers who can throw a little DPS, not DPS who throw a little heals. If you want the latter, go play RDM.

I think people's attitudes can certainly be a part of the problem. I don't even blame people wanting simplicity for the loss of complexity, because I don't see any reason why both cannot be accommodated for. It has never been an issue in my eyes if somebody isn't using the "best" rotation, but I prefer them playing confidently and comfortably. But I can get how other players can be a put off. And player attitudes can put people off of healing. Butto be fair, in the majority of the runs I've done of anything, people aren't judging or nitpicking each other based on how they play the job. I get why it's a worry, but it's not that common. And I am happy to help or cheer on anybody who might be struggling in this respect, because I know healing can be daunting as there is the added responsibility and the higher risk associated with making errors.

But I agree, DPS should be a secondary thing for healer roles. There shouldn't be a focus on doing the best rotation. And I hate that a handful of players' attitudes are one of the things to fuel SE screwing with my job. How people play healers now was perfectly acceptable in my eyes before they enforced it. I think as long as people are doing their best and what's comfortable, then how they play is absolutely fine.

The elitists I've always felt were the minority, they're a PITA when they're vocal, but even as an experienced healer who works in DPS rotations, I still get it. Heck I recently put a screenshot of my crossbar here in case it helps somebody who was asking for advice/feedback and I got a rude response for my set up, which has used an approach that has worked for me for years and helped me with my best carries. I think it is a problem regardless of how you play, because somebody will think you're wrong.

It can suck when people are especially bad for it. But my advice to people who come across them generally is "f*** 'em". If people want to be unpleasant and toxic, sod 'em. I realise for new healers looking for confidence, that can knock somebody off their pedastal a bit.

So maybe there are a few options if they are needed. And I think SE had a pretty good opportunity to address this without affecting current healer design. A 4th simpler healer would have been a good option. I'd not screw with existing healers but offer an option to those who find there's too much to worry about. One of the suggestions I have put out a few times in my feedback is the idea of tiered difficulty in roles. So 4th healer could be easiest, followed by WHM, SCH and then AST in terms of difficulty.

But I realise they are struggling for balance. But I'd rather us be complaining about balance than about not having fun...and heck, I don't tend to complain about balance, it's a constant battle. Plus I'm not a high percentile player, which arguably is where it truly matters. I don't get why people who aren't in those high percentile groups obsess over balance, all it means is they have to maybe do slightly better than the next to be their equivalent. I am saying this as a now DNC main whose job is at the bottom of the rDPS table.

You point out to Yoshi-P or any other dev saying that SCH is "meant to be a bit more challenging than the other healers". Go ahead, I'm waiting.

SCH was by design more challenging and has a tactical theme/approach to it (they were military tacticians in Nym). I played SCH since 2.0, 2.0 SCH was definitely more challenging and required you to think more tactically about how you managed your heals. Its healer kit has had tools added to it that to continue and accommodate that theme, but I argue they are now under-utilised and don't have that effect. 3.0 made SCH easier because it patched out one the weakness that made SCH more challenging, and it has grown stronger in this respect since and SCH ended up OP. I'm a SCH who for a long time has been against the idea of it being OP, because I don't find it as fun, but even then, it still had other redeeming features to keep me from disliking it.