A good old boyish cott

[Billythepancake]

snip

I have to ask, where are people meeting these so called "toxic elitists" in game? Outside of very specific circles and on some Savage pugs, I have not met 1 person in a dungeon or regular content that was such in the 3000 hours I have logged into this game. People seem to think this is a major problem, but I genuinely don't see it, most Savage raiders I've met don't care about optimizing outside of raids. I also have to ask, is it an elitist a-hole problem, or a problem of people unable to accept criticism? I remember a dungeon run a few months ago I had with a WHM I was running as DRK, saw him spamming cure for every auto,so I thought I could stop and give him advice, not my exact words but it's close "hey man, you don't gotta heal me for every single auto I take,I can really a few hits and be fine. If anything, just watch for me to hit about 50%, or if you're uncomfortable with that go for 60-70, and then heal me. In the meantime don't be afraid to do some DPS" and he TORE into me, how DARE I call him bad (I didn't) I don't pay his sub, what if he DOESN'T want to play the same way as everyone else,blah blah. In his eyes I was a toxic elitist, despite all me doing was trying to help him improve as a player. Ever since I've given up on helping people unless they ask, screw it, not worth trying to get chewed out and possibly reported because I just wanted to help. And that's what I find tends to be the Issue, people unable to hear something they're doing is wrong, or that they could be doing better.

And ah yes, the classic "if you want to DPS then go play a DPS argument", honestly it doesn't deserve a response but I'll respond anyway. I play a healer because I enjoy the responsibility of healing. I also enjoy feeling engaged and the minimal healing that is required on top of the extremely simplified DPS options we have, with nothing else to do, leads to an unengaging experience, specifically for those who choose to improve at the game, which should never be the case. I ask for more complexity in my job, not DPS in particular. DPS options would make the most sense, and is the easiest to implement so yes, I do bring it up the most, but I'd be fine with the complexity being elsewhere so long as it gives me something to do in my downtime. I do not ask for less healing downtime because both classes and game design are not equipped for such a thing outside of a massive rework on the level of ARR. I ask for classes to be better designed for the current design of the game because it's the most efficient and effective way to handle the problem.

[Risvertasashi]

TBH, I'll be playing healers until another game does it better.

Which isn't likely. And even if it happens I'll still play 14 for the story. But in the meantime, Shadowbringers is not worse than Stormblood.

[CrimsonGunner]

So basically you're asking for more buttons to push while not healing, which is..... exactly what the people arguing against this DON'T want.

again 1 class being simple is fine but why all of them need to be like that cause you just want to hit 1 button.
also i already gave you example as things can still be fun while you still pushing the same button again and again,so stop with this stupid chicken mentality.

Yeah, until you show up in a group and you get kicked just for being a WHM, or people grumble and look at you like you're playing the wrong job...

[/QUOTE]

they were probably already assholes and jackass and i will say to them:" screw you guys ,i am playing what i want to play"

[Darkpaw]

Radio silence... like how throughout stormblood mch’s got no word yet we got a massive rework in 5.0 and we didnt find out until a few months before.

This boycott thing needs to stop. It wont succeed and what you are calling for doesnt punish se, it punishes players and the community in general, what it advocates is you feel so entitled to your opinion that you are willing to destroy the enjoyment of the greater community by denying them access to new content.

How many of us are excited for the new alliance raid or the new msq dungeon? People have been so excited for the nier raid. People who pay just as much as you do to play and enjoy this game. And boycotts like this just scream out. “Our enjoyment of the game is more important than anyone else’s.” Whether thats intended or not isnt the point. Thats what it boils down to.

One last point FFXIV is not square enix’s primary source of income so even if subs did drop off it would not get you the result you seek. Make a concentrated thread. Find middle ground with those who are unsatisfied and those who are. Make calm rational criticisms. Be a force they cant ignore and stop resorting to tantrum tactics.

[Saefinn]

Radio silence... like how throughout stormblood mch’s got no word yet we got a massive rework in 5.0 and we didnt find out until a few months before.

This boycott thing needs to stop. It wont succeed and what you are calling for doesnt punish se, it punishes players and the community in general, what it advocates is you feel so entitled to your opinion that you are willing to destroy the enjoyment of the greater community by denying them access to new content.

How many of us are excited for the new alliance raid or the new msq dungeon? People have been so excited for the nier raid. People who pay just as much as you do to play and enjoy this game. And boycotts like this just scream out. “Our enjoyment of the game is more important than anyone else’s.” Whether thats intended or not isnt the point. Thats what it boils down to.

One last point FFXIV is not square enix’s primary source of income so even if subs did drop off it would not get you the result you seek. Make a concentrated thread. Find middle ground with those who are unsatisfied and those who are. Make calm rational criticisms. Be a force they cant ignore and stop resorting to tantrum tactics.

MCH's situation was very frustrating too as I recall they had a lot of complaining about it and on more than one ocassion SE suggested MCH was fine, despite people saying otherwise. Though I know people don't want to wait around until 6.0, especially in cases like WHM who have waited as long as MCH has for their issues to be addressed, be told they're getting addressed...and then find they're not.

But on the note of entitlement. This is actually why boycotts can be a good thing. In nature, yes, they seem very self-entitled. "I don't like this thing, therefore I'm gonna just not partake until you give me what I want! Hmph." But a single disgruntled person doing it is gonna do nothing. A handful of disgruntled people is gonna do nothing. The scale of disgruntled people needed to be able to make a dent to get noticed where it is causing a problem for people would also be large enough to say "hey maybe we should listen if there's this many people who feel strongly about it". Because even if the OP managed to get 1000 people to join them, you're talking a player base of millions. Last I checked, 16 million.

Even 10,000 players is a tiny percentage. It'd take an awful lot of people agreeing "this is what I want", to which point it's not longer about "this is what I want" but the desire of a sizeable number of people who form a section of your customer base. So boycotts only work if enough people care about them, by which point they're justifed because so many people care about them, or enough people don't care about them and has no effect.

As for your suggestion, this has what the forums have been like since before launch - or at least, this is as far back as I've been participating, they could even go further back than from when I started getting involved.

And with regards to income. I remember looking up the figures a couple of years ago. Final Fantasy XI was the top grossing Final Fantasy title of all time, with Final Fantasy XIV in a very close second (and probably has since surpassed it). And Final Fantasy is one of SE's biggest, if not biggest, franchises. MMO's generate a lot of moolah. Especially successful ones. So whilst I don't think if they shut down the game, it'd ruin their business, but I just don't see them doing that when the game makes a lot of money. They realise its earning potential, which is why they threw so much money at it when 1.0 was such a spectacular failure. I mean, I don't expect a boycott to result in something so dramatic, but I don't think we can underestimate how big FFXIV is.

[Crushnight]

...but yet you call AST "carpal tunnel inducing", lol.

Which is it, you want to be doing things constantly, or you don't.

Honestly, you people don't seem like you can make up your mind.

I'll try to explain why it is so horrendous to optimize(not normal play) AST on controller in 8 man content(it is less an issue in 4 man stuff).

You have 4 gcds to get 3 seal divination out,
You have drawn 1 card rdy in play pre pull with draw coming off cd before/as you hit your 1st gcd(your DoT),
Immediately as you see server tick(your DoT is best indicator) tap up/down on the dpad up to 4 times to get to the selected player for card buff if still in between gcds then draw and lightspeed,
Retarget + Gcd nuke/heal,
Ogcd draw if weren't able then press up/down on dpad up to 4 times to get to selected player if a correct seal and then Sleeve Draw if not redraw,
Retarget + Gcd nuke/heal,
Sleeve Draw if didn't redraw if last seal press up/down on dpad up to 4 times to get selected player if not redraw minor arcana card if able,
Retarget + Gcd nuke/heal,
3-seal Divination goes out, minor arcana new cards to lords/ladys press up/down on Dpad for remaining 1/2 Sleeve Draws up to a total of 6 times,
Retarget + Gcd nuke/heal,

There is only a 24% chance to get 3-seal divination without redraws so at best case scenerio a controller going for optimal settings would press 24 buttons by their 5th gcd 12.5secs at most into a fight, worse case 37 buttons are meant to be pressed in the same timeframe. This is repeated every 6 minutes into fights. Also meant to happen as you handle mechanics etc etc.

The minor Arcana change is going to reduce that best case scenerio by 3.


It is this crazy amount of work for far less payoff than a Whm going Dia, Glarex4 +any ogcds they use in between, why so many people hate new AST either they buff the cards breaking their balance but at least making the above tolerable as there is a worthwhile payoff, or change how AST currently is designed because it is not worth it, the above is why if someone asks should i play AST? i have to ask do you care about optimizing if i get a yes i tell them not to bother until they fix it, if no feel free to try it out ofc.

[Saefinn]

I find my AST controller set up works quite well and doesn't feel like carpal tunnel. But to make it work, I highly recommend extended crossbars, they take a little getting used to at first, but can make more fluid to access more abilities. Though I think if they removed 1 or 2 buttons (like with what they're doing with Arcana I believe) then my set up will be more streamline.

The point is, optimal play IS that important to a lot of people, even if they aren't that skilled a player themselves. Currently I'm comfortable with DPS as a healer even in Eden4 which, for me, is a duty that needs a lot of concentration to deal with mechanics. If you increase complexity of my DPS rotation, something is going to give. I will struggle to learn the next new fight because I'll be worrying about being judged for non-optimal play ( how many DPS or get kicked posts have we seen right here?) and I'll end up losing my confidence and going back to doing no content that involves other people.

Maybe if people would stop mistreating healers who are somewhat lesser-skilled, who can't handle the increased complexity, who keep people alive, but do less-than-optimal DPS to achieve that, then maybe people like the person you quoted wouldn't mind an extra DoT button, or an extra DPS button.

But even when you're doing Duty Finder, or you post on these forums that you don't do Savage, you still get people in your face going "YOU'RE NOT CLIPPING oGCDs! LOOK AT THOSE DPS SPELLS YOU MISSED! YOU MISSED A GCD BECAUSE YOU WERE 0.5s LATE WITH THAT CAST!" like it's top percentile you're supposed to be chasing in Duty Finder.

The elitist crowd only have themselves to blame.

I, too, don't think healers need to be any more complex with DPS. DPS should be a secondary task to keeping people alive. We are healers who can throw a little DPS, not DPS who throw a little heals. If you want the latter, go play RDM.

I think people's attitudes can certainly be a part of the problem. I don't even blame people wanting simplicity for the loss of complexity, because I don't see any reason why both cannot be accommodated for. It has never been an issue in my eyes if somebody isn't using the "best" rotation, but I prefer them playing confidently and comfortably. But I can get how other players can be a put off. And player attitudes can put people off of healing. Butto be fair, in the majority of the runs I've done of anything, people aren't judging or nitpicking each other based on how they play the job. I get why it's a worry, but it's not that common. And I am happy to help or cheer on anybody who might be struggling in this respect, because I know healing can be daunting as there is the added responsibility and the higher risk associated with making errors.

But I agree, DPS should be a secondary thing for healer roles. There shouldn't be a focus on doing the best rotation. And I hate that a handful of players' attitudes are one of the things to fuel SE screwing with my job. How people play healers now was perfectly acceptable in my eyes before they enforced it. I think as long as people are doing their best and what's comfortable, then how they play is absolutely fine.

The elitists I've always felt were the minority, they're a PITA when they're vocal, but even as an experienced healer who works in DPS rotations, I still get it. Heck I recently put a screenshot of my crossbar here in case it helps somebody who was asking for advice/feedback and I got a rude response for my set up, which has used an approach that has worked for me for years and helped me with my best carries. I think it is a problem regardless of how you play, because somebody will think you're wrong.

It can suck when people are especially bad for it. But my advice to people who come across them generally is "f*** 'em". If people want to be unpleasant and toxic, sod 'em. I realise for new healers looking for confidence, that can knock somebody off their pedastal a bit.

So maybe there are a few options if they are needed. And I think SE had a pretty good opportunity to address this without affecting current healer design. A 4th simpler healer would have been a good option. I'd not screw with existing healers but offer an option to those who find there's too much to worry about. One of the suggestions I have put out a few times in my feedback is the idea of tiered difficulty in roles. So 4th healer could be easiest, followed by WHM, SCH and then AST in terms of difficulty.

But I realise they are struggling for balance. But I'd rather us be complaining about balance than about not having fun...and heck, I don't tend to complain about balance, it's a constant battle. Plus I'm not a high percentile player, which arguably is where it truly matters. I don't get why people who aren't in those high percentile groups obsess over balance, all it means is they have to maybe do slightly better than the next to be their equivalent. I am saying this as a now DNC main whose job is at the bottom of the rDPS table.

You point out to Yoshi-P or any other dev saying that SCH is "meant to be a bit more challenging than the other healers". Go ahead, I'm waiting.

SCH was by design more challenging and has a tactical theme/approach to it (they were military tacticians in Nym). I played SCH since 2.0, 2.0 SCH was definitely more challenging and required you to think more tactically about how you managed your heals. Its healer kit has had tools added to it that to continue and accommodate that theme, but I argue they are now under-utilised and don't have that effect. 3.0 made SCH easier because it patched out one the weakness that made SCH more challenging, and it has grown stronger in this respect since and SCH ended up OP. I'm a SCH who for a long time has been against the idea of it being OP, because I don't find it as fun, but even then, it still had other redeeming features to keep me from disliking it.

[Aurturia]

This boycott thing needs to stop. It wont succeed and what you are calling for doesnt punish se, it punishes players and the community in general, what it advocates is you feel so entitled to your opinion that you are willing to destroy the enjoyment of the greater community by denying them access to new content.

How many of us are excited for the new alliance raid or the new msq dungeon? People have been so excited for the nier raid. People who pay just as much as you do to play and enjoy this game. And boycotts like this just scream out. “Our enjoyment of the game is more important than anyone else’s.” Whether thats intended or not isnt the point. Thats what it boils down to.

You do realize you're demanding for people who may not be enjoying the game as it is to shut up and serve a roll for your enjoyment of the game, yes? That being said no an organized boycott was never going to happen. Those of us who couldn't tolerate the changes have already abandoned the role, anyone who's unhappy but holding on well they either get used to it or leave too.

[Darkpaw]

You do realize you're demanding for people who may not be enjoying the game as it is to shut up and serve a roll for your enjoyment of the game, yes? That being said no an organized boycott was never going to happen. Those of us who couldn't tolerate the changes have already abandoned the role, anyone who's unhappy but holding on well they either get used to it or leave too.

Thank you for cherry picking my post to make your point. I did not and do not advocate for anyone to shut up so that I can enjoy the game. At the end of my original post I offered a suggestion aside from boycotting. The same solution that served warriors, machinists, and several other communities in this game. So please do not present what I said unfaithfully.

I understand the healers are upset with many of the changes, and I agree that missteps were made. It happens. It sucks that its happening to healers again. However; i will never support a boycott of a role. Warriors pre 4.2 didnt call for boycotts of the tank role far as i recall. Machinists didnt call for a boycott of ranged dps, paladins in heavensward, ninjas in shadowbringers havent called for boycotts due to unfair balancing.

Because it is wrong to impact the community when other avenues are available to these disgruntled players. Make a concentrated forum post stick to your guns, suggest real viable solutions, innovative ideas. Do it with civility and respect. Post questions during q&a’s, get a strong community effort across all the language forums. But don’t punish other players enjoyment of the game just because you are not happy. You would be pissed if another player did it to you.

[Kuwago]

I'm just going to be saying my piece after reading everything that's going on right now.

From what I have gathered, people are looking to see that healers be addresses not because of balancing issues but because of what the problems that have persisted since the start of this expansion, which is Mostly that SCH and AST was gutted to be as easy to pick up and play as WHM. Not saying that WHM is not without it's complexity, which I think they really nailed with Afflatus Heals and the Blood Lily for Damage. I think that's where to problem started from, WHM got additional stuff to it's kit that is very straightforward and simple, which fit's because it is the Healer that is very beginner friendly and a great Segway into the healing role.

SCH and AST however, was simplified to the point of WHM's beginner friendly gameplay. SCH was leaning towards the DPS heavy healer within the role, for DOTs as well as Bane to be taken away left SCH with just one DOT and one AOE. Correct me if I'm wrong but SCH wants their DOTs back, hell for me I want Bane back since manually putting DOTs on each enemy is too much of a hassle. Going from SB SCH where there was DOT management alongside Fairy Management to ShB SCH where both are pretty much gone is kinda…. disheartening to say the least, and that is what SCH players are crying out.

AST on the other hand, lost the complexity of cards and the manipulation of cards into... lackluster DMG increase cards that is separated by Melee/Ranged Roles. SB AST had tons of ways to manipulate cards with Royal Road effects (50% potency but turns it into AOE, 150% Potency for the next card, or 200% duration) or Minor Arcana alterations (Lord deals damage to enemy and Lady heals party members) while ShB only have Minor Arcana, where it changes the current card you pulled into.... the same DMG increase card with an extra 1%/2% potency increase. The differences in the gameplay is astounding for AST going from an actual support/buffing healer to a DMG increase healer bot that is pretty negligible when it comes to the DMG increase.

While there are people who like the newer iterations to the healers, there are others who played the jobs because of the things that they were able to do, and now, they are working on a compromise between the two iterations, which SE is resistant to listening to those who have experience playing with the class.