How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[CrimsonGunner]

Would you melt mobs two times faster or be a boring version of a dps that has half of its skill kit filled with situational skills and lazyass designed percentage damage reductions?

its clear from your responses your a dps fanatic. if you truly don't believe that tanks influence party outcome just as big if not bigger then healers then it shows how little you feel about your job.
positioning is kinda key element especially for mechanics and as for dps being able to stay in certain places for most of the time is rather important for dps classes especially those who cant cast during movements not to mention some dps actually do more damage based on positions.

so if this is what you think tanks are "a poor man dps" then samsta is right, go be a dps class it will probably make you happier.

[Samsta]

> Tells people to play another role when their role feels weak.
> Turns around and complains why no one plays Tanks.

I didn't complain?

The point of the argument for more tank damage is to have meaningful impact. It has been regurgitated over and over that it is not about having damage for damages sake but to have meaningful contribution equal to the DPS role. And that is frankly damage or actual tank mechanics to allow for a tank to truly impact the fight.

Tanks do have an impact, you have to bring 2 tanks to every current savage fight, because their kits allow them to do things that have to be done (survive enough damage, hold aggro) that no other roles can do, that is part of their impact, the fact that it is different in nature to straight damage is only a problem if you have an obsession for damage numbers.

There seems to be some misguided notion that improving tank impact would somehow disrupt the balance of the roles. Tanks are not balanced in terms of what they provide. It has been regurgitated over and over that mitigation and healing value ends after a sufficient threshold is passed.

On the other hand the value of DPS only continues to become more and more value after the threshold because it contributes to victory.

Actually, what you are saying is kinda true but mitigation does also have somewhat of a scaling effect in it, since it determines how much the tanks need to be healed so they can survive the next hit, reducing the amount of healing needed to be done, thus probably allowing healers to dps more and heal less. Same with healing, the more your heals heal, less heals you have to dish out, however this isn't as straight of a scale as dps, it's more of a steps kind of scale, where at the next step you need 1 less heal. However, both of these also contribute to victory, what you probably meant is that it contributes to faster victory, and yes, it does, dps can be measured in 0 = not enough dps and then scaling infinitely to faster victory. However, as you will point out you don't care about speed/boss health, so what is the problem here? You don't seem to acknowledge how important the tanks job is for reaching victory.

A tank players effort translating to only 60% of a DPS player? That doesn't sound good or fun.

Again, if you can only measure "effort" with a dps parser I don't know what to say, why don't you do 6 dps 2 healer parties if tanks don't bring as much, oh right, because tanks have the value of surviving attacks and holding aggro. The effort translates to victory.

ALL DAMAGE MATTERS. Whether it comes from a tank or healer, it is damage. Look at all past iterations and discussions about damage coming from tanks or healers. Damage is the largest contributor to winning a fight with infinite value. Health and mitigation do not have any value beyond Pass/Fail. A tank mitigating an attack but surviving with 1 health and a tank mitigating an attack and surviving with 50k health has no impact on the fight. What mattered was that they survived.

The point is not that a boss would have more health. The point is that when a tank player presses a button, it has as much impact as a DPS player who presses a button. That the button press has an equal contribution to winning the fight.

Actually, there are 2 contributors to winning a fight 1. staying alive 2. dealing enough dps to win enrage. If you want to measure value per button pressed, when you press that defensive cd that will keep you alive and you would otherwise die, that doesn't have any value to you? Your example is self-defeating btw, the difference there is that if tank survives with 1 health, it follows up with healers throwing all their heals at him, where as if he survives with 50k health much less resources will be spent.

And if we're talking about "quota" then I guess RDM, SMN and the Range classes are currently happy with their smaller "quota" over the other classes.

Oh wait.

The difference here is that dps actually have to compete versus another, tanks don't have to compete with dps for spots in a party, there is a shared quota for all dps, and some fill that quota better. All you should care about is if you fill that tank quota that devs have taken into consideration, whether it's big or small, and all tanks currently do.

[Freyyy]

its clear from your responses your a dps fanatic. if you truly don't believe that tanks influence party outcome just as big if not bigger then healers then it shows how little you feel about your job.
positioning is kinda key element especially for mechanics and as for dps being able to stay in certain places for most of the time is rather important for dps classes especially those who cant cast during movements not to mention some dps actually do more damage based on positions.

There's barely any positionning in a tank's role in this game right now. Bosses just reposition themselves with every mechanic when they're not outright just a giant static hitbox that takes half the arena (Leviathan, Titan Maximum for example, which are half the current raid tier). Aggro has become a complete non-issue and mitigation is just invuln most busters and press CDs on the rest. Protecting party members is just press one button on a 90sec recast when big damage is coming. Nothing feels engaging nor impactful. Everything is scripted and very easy to do. The only thing remaining is damage.

[Samsta]

There's barely any positionning in a tank's role in this game right now. Bosses just reposition themselves with every mechanic when they're not outright just a giant static hitbox that takes half the arena (Leviathan, Titan Maximum for example, which are half the current raid tier). Aggro has become a complete non-issue and mitigation is just invuln most busters and press CDs on the rest. Protecting party members is just press one button on a 90sec recast when big damage is coming. Nothing feels engaging nor impactful. Everything is scripted and very easy to do. The only thing remaining is damage.

So now this is about what feels impactful and less about what actually is impactful? You don't think not dying is impactful? The mental gymnastics you guys are willing to make to justify your damage obsession is insane. Positioning is very relevant in 1 and half of the fights and mitigation both party and personal means not dying, how is that not impactful but suddenly bigger number on a parser that is going to be adjusted to bosse's health is?

[BarretOblivion]

So now this is about what feels impactful and less about what actually is impactful? You don't think not dying is impactful? The mental gymnastics you guys are willing to make to justify your damage obsession is insane. Positioning is very relevant in 1 and half of the fights and mitigation both party and personal means not dying, how is that not impactful but suddenly bigger number on a parser that is going to be adjusted to bosse's health is?

...
Have you tanked 1? 1 is keeping the boss in the center of the map where he repositions to almost every other mechanic. Important nothing, the only fight where positioning is important is 2 where you need to make sure you have room to dodge heads and not go off the map. Titan has 1 mechanic in phase 1 where positioning is somewhat important, entirety of phase 2 there is no positioning, and phase 3 is keep Titan in the middle which is brain dead easy as he doesn't move except for 1 time when the split tank busters come up.

[Freyyy]

So now this is about what feels impactful and less about what actually is impactful?

It has always been mostly about feeling impactful. Of course, as long as things such as tank busters and forced tank swaps exist, we will be forced to have 1 or 2 tanks in order to clear the content because we're the only jobs with the tools needed to deal with these. But, just like magic TBs are just there to make Dark Mind look good/useful, TBs, mechanics that force tank swaps and such are just there to make having 2 tanks necessary. Delete these and the role becomes completely useless. The only thing that a tank does more than a melee DPS is press defensive CDs at very scripted times in each encounter and voking once/twice in some fights. None of this feels impactful, and they only are because the devs purposely designed these to force tanks into raid groups. On the other hand, our jobs are much easier to play with a lot less complexity and our contribution to damage (the only thing that matters for the group once the minimum mitigation/healing thresholds are met) is very low compared to what it used to be before.

[Kabooa]

Delete these and the role becomes completely useless..

How much damage do you lose for a DPS taking 55k autos from Titan and healers being forced to baby sit that?

How much damage do DPS lose when the Boss is ping ponging around between those holding aggro?

How much damage do any of the casters / healers lose when those Autos interrupt their spells?

How much -death- happens when the Tank role mitigations aren't present during the traditional end-boss raid busters?

How many of the -other jobs- would be able to survive a raid buster -and auto attacks happening immediately after-?

Just removing tankbusters doesn't make the role worthless. The amount of damage they mitigate just from auto attacks alone would wipe out a raid without tanks in this "No tank buster" fantasy land.

Not to mention if we had no tankbusters, the auto attacks would likely be ramped up, or supplemented with a few instant-attacks of comparable strength.

[Shurrikhan]

How much damage do you lose for a DPS taking 55k autos from Titan and healers being forced to baby sit that?

(Forgive the 4-day late reply, but this still seems an important point to discuss.)

As always, that would depend on the healer dps lost relative to the dps gained by replacing a tank with another dps. If, say, a DPS is doing 14.5k, a tank 8.5k, and a pure-dps healer 8k, the healer would have to be healing 3/4ths more of the time due to that swap for it to be worth taking a tank. For each of the questions, you could run simulations and point out "tanks are still a net gain". That might not be true of a second tank, but given how much of tank mitigation is passive it would pretty much always be true of the first, even in that above scenario whereby tankbusters are removed (+/- auto-attacks being ramped up to compensate, but still being unable to outright one-shot a DPS). The question is how much of a lead should tanks have. How niche should a single-tanking setup be? Or a solo-healer setup? How much inertia or hegemony, so to speak, should be given to the "traditional" 4/2/2 comp. When DPS still had some utility of note beyond mere rDPS, the best balance was probably a point where a non-traditional point should only be competitive with deliberate planning or when vastly overgeared. But now -- when apart from Mantra and a usually-still-worthless Ranged raid mitigation buff? I'm not sure.

[Kabooa]

(Forgive the 4-day late reply, but this still seems an important point to discuss.).

Questions that could be their own discussion thread, for certain, but not here, unfortunately.

Frankly, if I'm being honest, I don't think buffing tanks is the end of the world, I just know it won't end there. We'll hit 5.2 and 5.3 and we'll see this thread again, because the core problem is that tanks, even as fun as they can be at times, are still just extremely shallow.

A potency boost should be seen as patronizing, not as the solution, because that would just be a "Quiet down and enjoy your 800 more damage per hit".

[Samsta]

It has always been mostly about feeling impactful. Of course, as long as things such as tank busters and forced tank swaps exist, we will be forced to have 1 or 2 tanks in order to clear the content because we're the only jobs with the tools needed to deal with these. But, just like magic TBs are just there to make Dark Mind look good/useful, TBs, mechanics that force tank swaps and such are just there to make having 2 tanks necessary. Delete these and the role becomes completely useless. The only thing that a tank does more than a melee DPS is press defensive CDs at very scripted times in each encounter and voking once/twice in some fights. None of this feels impactful, and they only are because the devs purposely designed these to force tanks into raid groups. On the other hand, our jobs are much easier to play with a lot less complexity and our contribution to damage (the only thing that matters for the group once the minimum mitigation/healing thresholds are met) is very low compared to what it used to be before.

What a weird thing to say. This a game, everything is there to make you do something. Enrage is there to make you do enough dps, damage is there to make you heal. What you are saying is "if they delete everything tanks are supposed to do tanks don't have anything to do anymore" well yeah, if they delete boss hp and make the bosses just follow a set rotation and then they just die after dps are useless. You speak like every other thing is there is is like a force of nature that exists without any intention from the devs. Yeah tankbusters are there to make tanks do something, just like raidwide damage is there to make healers do something. What even is the point of this? Are healers forced into raid groups because damage exists?