How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[SaberMaxwell]

By not healing, simple.

My WHM and SCH both consistently get 99s in most (if not every) fight this tier.

Are neither healing?

[Nedkel]

Yeah it's kind of a double whammy. The role was simplified and then they also gutted the damage? It's rough. I've always loved tanking but it's sapping the enjoyment out of the role for me.

We are a poor man version of dps right now and its not good.
We have a lot less dmg than dps and we are a lot simplier and boring to play as well.
No wonder why tanks are still in need despite 1 job more to play.

[Rufalus]

We are a poor man version of dps right now and its not good.
We have a lot less dmg than dps and we are a lot simplier and boring to play as well.
No wonder why tanks are still in need despite 1 job more to play.

I'd still rather mmos don't use roles. So every job is basically a damage dealer with a bit of support and self sustain. If you design fights to need dedicated tanks and healers then those roles are the most homogeneous with their kits tuned to mitigate the scripted high tank damage and undo raidwide damage. And those roles are always less popular than dps due to less fun or higher stress/responsibility so it makes the role-based duty queues take longer to fill. Also I don't like how a dedicated healer role with huge heal power turns pvp into a healer vs everyone tug of war trying to stop them from undoing all of the damage, and if the healer dies then their team is so vulnerable without them; it's too much power/responsibility focused into one role. I think xiv-style raids would still be mostly the same in a game without roles, you still have dps checks and basically all of the movement mechanics, just without scripted tankbusters on a single enmity target and less unavoidable raidwide damage.

[CrimsonGunner]

im usually not like this but really enough is enough.

WTH is wrong with you all, you are bitching about tanks not doing the same dps as a dps class whose whole purpose is just that.
are you real? i mean are you real people or just trolls?complaining about why tanks dont hit as hard as a dps,is this for real?
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE ROLE IS ALL ABOUT?

i can understand complains about x job doing smaller dps then the rest of the jobs in their role.
i can understand complains about wishing the kit will have better rewards for executing combo and rotations (maybe will increase mitigation/lead to a burst phase or maybe lead to gain a barrier)
hell i can even understand complains about tanks probably do less then healers(which isn't like that at all) but that's not the case here.
but to compare the damage of tanks whose purpose is to absorb damage and take agro to the actual role that is in charge of actually dealing massive damage aka dps role, thats reaching a new low.

i read a lot of things in the forum and there were legitimate complains about dps. among the healers,it isn't how much dps they deal but the lack of varied things they do when they don't heal.
while WHM is in a good place this expansion SCH and AST aren't upset about their overall dps ,they upset that there is a serious lack of actions to do during healing downtime,either is applying varied buffs or debuffs and in worse case give healers more then just 1 damage skill but they never complained about why their dps isn't the same as an actual dps class.

you know who need to complain about low numbers in damage compare to dps jobs,THE CLASS WHOSE ROLE IS BEING DAMAGE DEALER IN THE FIRST PLACE WHICH THEY DO.
its their solid point and main contribution to a party. have you seen the talks about it, giving certain dps disparities between the jobs in the role and entire classes get excluded and banned because of it and why BECAUSE ITS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THEIR JOB AND WITHOUT THAT THEY CANT CONTRIBUTE IN PARTIES ,its sad but it exists.

and then you come crying and saying that tanks are a poor version of dps or they must have the same as dps role then let me tell you something that might wake you up YOU ARE NOT DPS, YOU ARE A TANK.
tanks are protectors,they guard the party from mobs,they take the full hits from the mobs and sole purpose is to make sure the mobs won't chase us fragile classes.

and last point why this is such a bad comparison and request, if you basically give a tank the same dps as those that actually specialize in damage,what is the point in having a dps job if tank can do the same amount+mitigating damage.
if such a thing was real and if SE didn't enforce the party composition(there is content that literally doesn't require specific party composition), you can basically remove all dps jobs,cause switching to a tank will be the same as being dps with the benefit of mitigation skills.the only thing that will give reason to dps classes to exist would be SE enforcement of party composition and that's it.

[Nedkel]

stuff

Its pretty clearly you have not read or not understood OP concerns.
I will demonstrate to you something, look at this:


First numbers are coming from the savage raids in this expansion on this patch and second numbers are coming from savage raid from the patch before shadowbringers. These numbers represent the performance of all jobs in terms of pure DPS relative to all jobs.
You could see, tanks DPS performance dropped from 63-66% to 52-55%, its a 17% drop in performance in comparison to what we had back in the stormblood.
That means we lost on the influence, before a good tank would deal more dps than a bad DPS, and now even a good tank cannot surpass a bad DPS, and its really silly, especially if you realize that healers could deal almost as much dmg as tanks, when before they were nowhere near that level...
Tanks now are weaker than they were in the previous expansion and this is a hard and sad fact.

Also regarding team full of tanks.
No, if tanks were dealing 60-70% of damage that DPS do, you would still get only 1 tank, because deffensive bonuses are only valuable on one guy from the whole party, you dont need anymore tank than one, boss attack only one guy and cast tank busters only on one guy. Anything excessive in the deffensive department is a waste, i could guarantee you if team had any choice to which class should they take, they would take only 1 tank and not two like we have right now.

[Samsta]

Its pretty clearly you have not read or not understood OP concerns.
I will demonstrate to you something, look at this:


First numbers are coming from the savage raids in this expansion on this patch and second numbers are coming from savage raid from the patch before shadowbringers. These numbers represent the performance of all jobs in terms of pure DPS relative to all jobs.
You could see, tanks DPS performance dropped from 63-66% to 52-55%, its a 17% drop in performance in comparison to what we had back in the stormblood.
That means we lost on the influence, before a good tank would deal more dps than a bad DPS, and now even a good tank cannot surpass a bad DPS, and its really silly, especially if you realize that healers could deal almost as much dmg as tanks, when before they were nowhere near that level...
Tanks now are weaker than they were in the previous expansion and this is a hard and sad fact.

Also regarding team full of tanks.
No, if tanks were dealing 60-70% of damage that DPS do, you would still get only 1 tank, because deffensive bonuses are only valuable on one guy from the whole party, you dont need anymore tank than one, boss attack only one guy and cast tank busters only on one guy. Anything excessive in the deffensive department is a waste, i could guarantee you if team had any choice to which class should they take, they would take only 1 tank and not two like we have right now.

1 tank only? Let's see

E1S: tank vice and virtue would kill 1 dps, spear of paradise would have to be invulned, not all tanks can invuln every spear and dps would need to tank the add.
E2S: Every tankbuster would kill 1 dps.
E3S:Boss would autoattack dps through the whole fight, it would be hell, every tankbuster must be invulned, not possible, flare marker would kill someone during stormy horizon, the big hit during tsunami 2 would kill someone, other flare marker before black smokers would kill someone, and black smokers would kill someone (unless the healers invests like everything to heal him)
E4S: Every tankbuster needs to be invulned, not possible, earthen anguish would kill 1 dps 3 times during the fight, megalith would kill 1 dps/the tank 3 times the fight

It turns out 2 tanks are kinda needed.

[Xtrasweettea]

1 tank only? Let's see

E1S: tank vice and virtue would kill 1 dps, spear of paradise would have to be invulned, not all tanks can invuln every spear and dps would need to tank the add.
E2S: Every tankbuster would kill 1 dps.
E3S:Boss would autoattack dps through the whole fight, it would be hell, every tankbuster must be invulned, not possible, flare marker would kill someone during stormy horizon, the big hit during tsunami 2 would kill someone, other flare marker before black smokers would kill someone, and black smokers would kill someone (unless the healers invests like everything to heal him)
E4S: Every tankbuster needs to be invulned, not possible, earthen anguish would kill 1 dps 3 times during the fight, megalith would kill 1 dps/the tank 3 times the fight

It turns out 2 tanks are kinda needed.

Regardless if you need two tanks or can get away with one ("Skip Soar" anyone?), it doesn't lessen Nedkel's point. Nedkel's point was a counter to Gun's speculation that having same damage as a DPS would make it to where no one would bring DPS and only tanks since they can mitigate damage better than DPS. Nedkel is correct that even if tank damage was close, but not equal to DPS, we still wouldn't have a full party of tanks since it would be a mitigation waste.

Even the raids you pointed out still meets Nedkel's point. These are all targeting one person or at most, two people. It just happens that due to the frequency and strength of each of these enemy actions, one tank cannot currently handle the full load. Adding more tanks doesn't negate the single target tankbuster more.

Nedkel is correct that if possible, people would drop the second tank for another DPS. If the same amount of resources from the healers and tank could allow the swap, it will happen. Having an extra +45% damage to the raid is a considerable increase.

[RadicalPesto]

im usually not like this but really enough is enough.

WTH is wrong with you all, you are bitching about tanks not doing the same dps as a dps class whose whole purpose is just that.
are you real? i mean are you real people or just trolls?complaining about why tanks dont hit as hard as a dps,is this for real?
DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE ROLE IS ALL ABOUT?

Yeah, the tank role in FFXIV is about contributing the highest amount of DPS while completing your role specific mechanics (mitigating for yourself or for others, positioning and tank swapping). Same as every other role in FFXIV.

[CrimsonGunner]

lets just get it over with.
create a thread that asks SE to create an all round job that can be tank with the same dps as the other dps jobs with a healer kit and be done with this.

[Quor]

lets just get it over with.
create a thread that asks SE to create an all round job that can be tank with the same dps as the other dps jobs with a healer kit and be done with this.

Agreed. Tanks are not dps are not healers. The "play" of a tank is the know the fight like the back of your hand so you don't wipe people and enable the dps and healers to do their jobs as easily as possible. Yes, once you learn a fight you're pretty much done as a tank, but you need to know and execute that fight flawlessly or else the entire raid suffers. In other words you do the mechanics flawlessly as a tank or everyone very likely will die.

You need to read the data. The main point is that tanks lost about 17% damage baised off 1 to 1 scaling. There two tanks so as a group we lost about 963 damage each which lets round to a total of 2k group dps. This usually means every fight we lost the wiggle room of 1 death in each fight and dps have to make up that 2k dps hole

That chart is comparing the final raid of the last tier with the current raid of this tier. What are the numbers of current savage with Deltascape savage?