How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Quor]

That's a load of shit, and you know it.

Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage." Which completely ignores the fact that, sans tanks who perform the mechanics correctly, the raids would not be possible. Given that all current end-game content has been cleared since the day it came out, it's obvious that the classes as they are now are quite capable of performing to the necessary standards to beat said raids. Hence, any complaint about "dps" for a healer or a tank - especially ones that involve using such clearly padded numbers as the ones we've seen in this thread - are simply people bitching that they want more damage for the sake of having bigger e-peen numbers of FFlogs. Once again reinforcing the wisdom of SE when they say they will never add an official dps meter into the game.

Tank damage is fine. Tank mitigation is fine. Tank balance is fine. It's more than fine. It's the best it's been EVER. No changes are needed outside of minor tweaks to potencies and maybe duration of certain buffs. We certainly don't need to go about making tank damage on par with dps, regardless of whether that comes in the form of personal damage or raid utility.

[FallenWings]

Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage." Which completely ignores the fact that, sans tanks who perform the mechanics correctly, the raids would not be possible. Given that all current end-game content has been cleared since the day it came out, it's obvious that the classes as they are now are quite capable of performing to the necessary standards to beat said raids. Hence, any complaint about "dps" for a healer or a tank - especially ones that involve using such clearly padded numbers as the ones we've seen in this thread - are simply people bitching that they want more damage for the sake of having bigger e-peen numbers of FFlogs. Once again reinforcing the wisdom of SE when they say they will never add an official dps meter into the game.

Tank damage is fine. Tank mitigation is fine. Tank balance is fine. It's more than fine. It's the best it's been EVER. No changes are needed outside of minor tweaks to potencies and maybe duration of certain buffs. We certainly don't need to go about making tank damage on par with dps, regardless of whether that comes in the form of personal damage or raid utility.

The raids would not be possible either with *gasp* DAMAGE. Any tank worth their salt can tell you that the tank mechanics are shallow and have no degree of impact beyond Pass/Fail. Even in terms of fight specific mechanics, tanks deal with the least, especially now that bosses just auto position themselves or don't move at all. That is the issue. A tank player does not make a run better/faster because mitigation/healing has a cap on usefulness. That is why tanks disregarded their tank stance or vitality accessories for more damage. Because damage matters more

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#metric=rdps&dataset=95&class=Non-Healers&aggregate=amount&boss=66
TIL that pulling statistics from a site that aggregates a ton of data is "padded numbers" /s

Tanks are fine within their role. Tanks are not impactful in the grand scheme of the game.

[Samsta]

The raids would not be possible either with *gasp* DAMAGE. Any tank worth their salt can tell you that the tank mechanics are shallow and have no degree of impact beyond Pass/Fail. Even in terms of fight specific mechanics, tanks deal with the least, especially now that bosses just auto position themselves or don't move at all. That is the issue. A tank player does not make a run better/faster because mitigation/healing has a cap on usefulness. That is why tanks disregarded their tank stance or vitality accessories for more damage. Because damage matters more

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=66
TIL that pulling statistics from a site that aggregates a ton of data is "padded numbers" /s

Tanks are fine within their role. Tanks are not impactful in the grand scheme of the game.

Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

[FallenWings]

Maybe dps is for you then if you wanna deal damage? Tanks have plenty of things to worry about in harder content on top of optimizing doing damage, you have to maintain a defensive cooldown rotation, party mitigation and position the boss (in fights where that is possible) and do tank specific mechanics. If that is not enough for you play dps.

> Tells people to play another role when their role feels weak.
> Turns around and complains why no one plays Tanks.

The point of the argument for more tank damage is to have meaningful impact. It has been regurgitated over and over that it is not about having damage for damages sake but to have meaningful contribution equal to the DPS role. And that is frankly damage or actual tank mechanics to allow for a tank to truly impact the fight.

There seems to be some misguided notion that improving tank impact would somehow disrupt the balance of the roles. Tanks are not balanced in terms of what they provide. It has been regurgitated over and over that mitigation and healing value ends after a sufficient threshold is passed.

On the other hand the value of DPS only continues to become more and more value after the threshold because it contributes to victory.

A tank players effort translating to only 60% of a DPS player? That doesn't sound good or fun.

Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

ALL DAMAGE MATTERS. Whether it comes from a tank or healer, it is damage. Look at all past iterations and discussions about damage coming from tanks or healers. Damage is the largest contributor to winning a fight with infinite value. Health and mitigation do not have any value beyond Pass/Fail. A tank mitigating an attack but surviving with 1 health and a tank mitigating an attack and surviving with 50k health has no impact on the fight. What mattered was that they survived.

The point is not that a boss would have more health. The point is that when a tank player presses a button, it has as much impact as a DPS player who presses a button. That the button press has an equal contribution to winning the fight.

And if we're talking about "quota" then I guess RDM, SMN and the Range classes are currently happy with their smaller "quota" over the other classes.

Oh wait.

[CrimsonGunner]

stuff

a tanks effort to keep party members alive doesn't contribute to dps? surviving those tank busters skills so a wipe wont happen isn't contributing?

as you said ALL DAMAGE MATTERS which means all party members damage matters not just tank.
sure that in higher content every person is expected to make certain amount but in the end its about THE ENTIRE PARTY REACHES THAT DAMAGE CHECKPOINT and it doesn't matter how much each contribute to reach it as long as it was reached. just as others said SE is making those dps ceiling based on the roles meaning tanks have their dps queue,healers have theirs ,and dps are the majority but in the end its team effort and it doesn't matter how much each contributed as long as it was done (its not a dps competition).

you said healing and mitigation have no value beyond pass/fail meaning and you don't find it valuable ? does dying because of no healing or mitigating sound that unimportant to you?
death=0 dps, death = party wipe , i sure find it significant enough for any party member and definitely show tank contribution to party and especially party dps.

as for the "quota" of RDM SMN and the range classes, you do realize they are in fact DPS JOBS and its their job doing damage.
they cant tank,they cant heal like healers do meaning they take care of one thing damage to boss.
they don't have a problem with just smaller dps,they have a problem with the DPS GAP BETWEEN THE JOBS IN THEIR ROLE and like i said before that gap is the major issue they have cause it basically lead to exclusion and banning them.
so yea compering them to other dps jobs is reasonable cause all of them are in fact DPS JOBS.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage."

No, that's your overly narrow interpretation.

[AmeliaVerves]

simply people bitching

I only see a select few bitching in this thread. :v

If you don't care about your dps thats fair and all, but why would you jump at ppl that are interested in having a balance between ALL jobs and who have fun competing against every player, not just of their own role? Just bc some have different ways of enjoying the game doesn't give you the right to talk down on anyone.

Most of the posts supporting it are a variation of "I want to feel more useful to the raid and the only way I can feel more useful as a tank is by doing more damage."

At the end of the day there is only so much you can mitigate and heal. So obv everything boils down to: more dps so the boss dies faster, or?



And where exactly did anyone say to make tanks do equal damage than dps? The main complaint was they lost relative damage compared to SB and are below whm? Or did I miss something?

[Quor]

I only see a select few bitching in this thread. :v

Can it with the thinly veiled insults. If you want to ignore all the posts made per week about tank dps, then sure, go for it.

If you don't care about your dps thats fair and all, but why would you jump at ppl that are interested in having a balance between ALL jobs and who have fun competing against every player, not just of their own role? Just bc some have different ways of enjoying the game doesn't give you the right to talk down on anyone.

Don't put words into my mouth. The people in this thread advocating for increased tank dps don't give a damn about balance, because the tanks as they are right now are the most balanced they have ever been. Comparing cross role "balance" is a ridiculous idea, and shouldn't even be considered as an idea, yet here we have a number of people, including OP, talking about the damage of healers and dps compared to tanks and finding tanks wanting.

At the end of the day there is only so much you can mitigate and heal. So obv everything boils down to: more dps so the boss dies faster, or?

Heal and mitigation checks exist in this game as well. Failing them causes a wipe more often than not, either immediately or later on down the line due to attrition. More dps makes it so the boss dies faster, yes, and a wiped raid group has 0 dps.

And where exactly did anyone say to make tanks do equal damage than dps? The main complaint was they lost relative damage compared to SB and are below whm? Or did I miss something?

FallenWings, post 46 of this very thread, for one. So you did miss something.

No, that's your overly narrow interpretation.

I've read through this entire thread, watching Kabooa (and others) explain why their arguments are, in a word, bullshit, yet the same responses just keep coming, all some variation of "gib dmg 2 tank plz." Buzz words like aDPS and rDPS are thrown around, comparisons are made, and counter arguments are ignored, all in the goal of getting bigger numbers for the sake of having bigger numbers.

Look, here are the facts; SE has designed a 2/2/4 baseline group composition for tanks/healers/dps and all fights are designed in such a way that by playing your class correctly at minimum ilvl you should be able to beat the final enrage assuming you successfully did all the mechanics in the fight. Anything beyond that is simply e-peen flexing. All fights in the current end-game were beaten by 2/2/4 comps of various types within the first 24 hours of their release. Asking for more dps on a tank, either via personal means or raid utility means, is asking too much. Tanks have the dps they need in order to beat a fight. Wanting more just means wanting to carry people in your group, and as Samsta notes:

Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

Which sums it up nicely.

Damage does matter.
Take away tanks damage and see what will happen, barely anyone will want to play the class. Dealing big damage is fun and its important, since SE want it play safe and by design makes it the most important game aspect...
If you see yourself trying your best and sit at the bottom of damage chart no matter what you did, i am more than sure you would not be happy to play job you play. Welcome to the warriors world.

This is an intentional misinterpretation of what Samsta is saying.