Storm's Eye Is a Chore

[Quor]

That would be fine. In a way, just losing the feeling obliged to do something that feels so awkward during dungeon AoE would probably be enough, just as with Disembowel on DRG.

But, just personally, I'd rather see it be applicable in AoE situations (and ideally as something distinct from the A-B-A-B spam every tank has). That's not with the purpose of making it unique, to be clear: I'd just as soon have PLD freed from just using A-B-A-B (and C-C-C-C-C during Req) spam in AoE as well.

I'm torn on the issue of tank combo complexity. On the one hand, I get it, more complex means more potential for fun via a higher skill ceiling. But the problem with this is that people (rightly) believe that a more complex, complicated rotation should yield commensurate reward. After all, if something takes more work to do correctly, it should be more rewarding when it's pulled off.
This creates a major problem however, as it clearly differentiates one job from another, and this results in major balance problems. After all, if a job is more complex to play, then it should reward such proper complex execution somehow. With tanks we're limited to damage mitigating and damage dealing as rewards for proper kit execution. A good example that balances this would be TBN for DRK; you get the direct reward of absorbed damage plus Dark Arts buff, plus the indirect reward of healers needing less GCD's to heal someone, thus contributing more damage to the group overall. DRK, for compensation, is on the lower end of the damage dealt by tanks along with the simplest basic combo. Thus, the meta-challenge with DRK is less about rotation optimization (this is still important to do correctly, just the skill ceiling is fairly low) and more about mitigation optimization via TBN to free up healer GCD's.

Which is great. It gives DRK a unique flavor, and when I'm on DRK I have a drastically different mindset then when I'm on, say, GNB. GNB's big challenge is less about watching over the raid like Batman with a big ass sword and more about fitting as much explosive damage into their No Mercy window as possible, with a healthy side of double-weaving because RIP AND TEAR. It's rotational complexity is arguably the highest of all the tanks, and it gets commensurate DPS reward as a result. PLD also has greater rotational complexity, with two damage phases and a pair of DoT's to manage in place of carefully-timed double-weaves and GCD-to-GCD resource management.

Anyway, to wrap this up, the balance we have between the tanks right now is pretty spot on. No one tank is so far ahead or behind that you end up invalidating one or more of the others. Thus, any little change could potentially throw something out of whack. I've been thinking of ways to potentially address the SE-during-AoE issue, but everything just ends up with WAR and DRK being even more similar than they are now. If you put it on an oGCD then that's just like darkside buff for DRK, and if you keep it as a combo then you still run into the issue of having the "speed bump" of applying SE via the combo before engaging in your normal aoe rotation. If anything, just give WAR a passive that activates when fighting 3+ mobs at the same time. This would give WAR +10% damage and won't stack with SE. Have the timer constantly refresh to maximum until less than 3 mobs are present (game reads as "has the most aggro with") at which point it begins to tick down normally. SE is still required for 1 and 2 target fights, WAR gets their damage buff normally, and on pulls of 3+ where the WAR has aggro on at least 3 of those mobs (like 4-man's) then the buff triggers and it's basically SE minus the speed bump.

[Lyth]

Let's be honest with ourselves. In the broader scheme of gaming in general, MMOs are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to mechanical complexity, marginally ahead of turn-based strategy games and building simulation games. What we really depend on is fight complexity with interesting mechanics to puzzle out. Does it really matter if you're pressing 3 then 4 after performing the same rotations for a few hundred hours? Not really. You're still capable of mashing out the same rotation in a semi-conscious daze.

The problem with tanking isn't a job action design problem. It's a fight design problem. The people who design these fights come up with very interesting mechanics from a dps perspective, but they have next to no understanding of how a fight is experienced from a tanking perspective. Tanks are not frontal positional dps that memorise 4 extra timestamps for tankbusters that we just alternate invulns on. The core of tanking is positioning. And when you have bosses that auto-position themselves, or worse, the standard big boss that sits at the edge of an arena and can't even be re-positioned if you tried, you kind of take the interesting bits out of tanking. We haven't had a properly designed fight from a tank perspective since Heavensward.

As for Eye in AoE: you could do something based off of Decimate, similar to how Fated Circle on GNB acts like a '3' to their 1-2 AoE combo.

[millktea]

Storm's Eye is fine. Warrior's rotation is already extremely simple, what with having almost no off-gcds and the lowest number of offensive skills out of all the tanks. Removing one of the few things they have to sorts of manage without adding something will just further reinforce people's feelings that Warrior is too simple to be fun.

NO, it isn't fine. You thinking it is "extremely simple" doesn't make it fine either. Also, it is only "extremely easy" on a dummy fight.

I do feel the rotation is simple, yes. I main the job. It is 95% what i play, all day, every day for 2.5 years straight (i technically played it for 3.5, but i was an absolute raid war main for all of SB). What bothers me most about this comment is you offer nothing to back up what you have to say. What is your purpose? to cause issues to be stagnant? A job being simple doesn't make it fine. Nor does it having less offensive skills, which that ALONE makes it NOT FINE. The fact that you brought up "Warrior is too simple to be fun" also means it isn't fine. So, again I ask: What is the purpose of your comment? What do you hope to achieve?

Multiple players have noticed an issue with storm's eye duration. This many players couldn't possibly be lying. The introduction to the infuriate traits and inner chaos adds 2 to 3 more gcds into the rotation. These extra gcds and the added infuriate charge complicates warrior's rotation, causing it to be clunky (this is especially true with downtime).

Samurai was given an extension due to added abilities. The fact that Warrior did not get this same treatment is problematic and an irresponsible oversight. The other three tanks do not need to do a single target combo to go into burst, which means this is a passive dps loss to warrior that the other tanks do not have. Not only does this waste gcds, but it causes the warrior to fall behind the party and party buffs. Monk got faster with the removal to RoF's slowdown, meaning that throughout the fight, these two will lose synergy. War can only really use Brotherhood and Embolden (due to the issue with DHC). This is also true for aoe: Warrior's need at least 22 to 25s for IR and to not drop eye. A warrior should not need to Tempest 2 to 3x just to have this safety.

Again, i dunno why 16 players don't back anything up with this particular comment. Nothing you said was beneficial to the topic or the issue with eye. Simplicity isn't an excuse for a lack of change or adjustment towards a flaw.

Warrior should be a little more complex, but it's focus is tanking, not pure dps. That said, i don't think it's fair that other tanks have an actual dps rotation, but less CDs. Warrior had an actual rotation at the beginning of SB, and player's complained it was too difficult. Now they are complaining it is too simple (though i have found that many that complain it's "braindead" are those that tend to be... less skilled with warrior or they don't even have it leveled. To fully see Warrior's issues, it must be 80 and it must be played.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm torn on the issue of tank combo complexity. On the one hand, I get it, more complex means more potential for fun via a higher skill ceiling. But the problem with this is that people (rightly) believe that a more complex, complicated rotation should yield commensurate reward.

That's only an issue if the reward is to maximum sustained rDPS, rather than serving only to address practical (albeit them still rDPS-affecting) concerns brought by the initial complexity being improved upon as it should be.

A DRK, for instance cannot waste DoT potency except via Living Shadow, and finds its damage buff nigh impossible to drop, whereas DoT damage is a rarely challenged but frequent mechanic of DoT, and the damage buff a rarely challenged but frequent mechanic of Warrior. If allowing for smooth and competitive (and, as a byproduct, entertaining) integrations of normally single-target skills into AoE makes those challenges a matter of skill instead of happenstance or a least worst solution (do I waste Storm's Eye duration due to forced downtime or skip Storm's Eye duration by using it when I get back), you still only make Warrior better able to keep to the higher sustained dps its already balanced around. The same goes for Paladin and Goring Blade.

The result of that increased complexity (read: control added to already existent complexity) would be tightened balance, whereby fights have less of an unavoidable negative impact on any particular kit.

[RadicalPesto]

NO, it isn't fine. You thinking it is "extremely simple" doesn't make it fine either. Also, it is only "extremely easy" on a dummy fight.

I do feel the rotation is simple, yes. I main the job. It is 95% what i play, all day, every day for 2.5 years straight (i technically played it for 3.5, but i was an absolute raid war main for all of SB). What bothers me most about this comment is you offer nothing to back up what you have to say. What is your purpose? to cause issues to be stagnant? A job being simple doesn't make it fine. Nor does it having less offensive skills, which that ALONE makes it NOT FINE. The fact that you brought up "Warrior is too simple to be fun" also means it isn't fine. So, again I ask: What is the purpose of your comment? What do you hope to achieve?

Maybe instead of getting so angry about a post you should actually read it first, given that what I said is "Warrior is already so simple that advocating for removing ANOTHER one of its buttons would make the class unbearably dull". Given that people like Xeno, whose opinion people love parroting, have actively advocated for the outright removal of Storm's Eye, it might be good to say, in fact, that this should not be done, lest Square Enix decide to take all this feedback at face value and reduce Warrior to a 3 button rotation.

Samurai was given an extension due to added abilities. The fact that Warrior did not get this same treatment is problematic and an irresponsible oversight. The other three tanks do not need to do a single target combo to go into burst, which means this is a passive dps loss to warrior that the other tanks do not have. Not only does this waste gcds, but it causes the warrior to fall behind the party and party buffs.

The Gunbreaker opener requires 3 or 4 GCD's before going into its burst phase, which is either exactly the same or slower than Warrior, because you need to generate 1 cartridge to start a Gnashing Fang combo, and its very suboptimal to do that with Bloodfest in the opener, since you want the Bloodfest cartridges to be generated and spent during No Mercy. Dark Knight delays using Delirium by at least 1 combo during its opener so it can use the resources from a Blood Weapon buffed Souleater combo to cast Living Shadow 3 gcds into the fight. The only tank that starts its burst before finishing its first combo is PLD.

[NyneSwordz]

I don't want to see eye removed. Its fine in single target situations. But having to apply it with the single target combo before being able to maintain it with the aoe combo is a real chore.

I don't mind lyths idea of making the aoe combo 3 step as long as the last step applies eye.

Alternatively, if lets say overpower can combo into maim into storms eye. That would be okay too.

Because then u can overpower to grab the pack, maim and se to apply eye, then overpower and mythril tempest spam.

This much better and less clunky than the current overpower, heavy swing, maim, eye, AND THEN overpower and mythril.

[LuceliaUltima]

What if infuriate gives you eye even 10s for opener

[Shurrikhan]

What if infuriate gives you eye even 10s for opener

Then it'd have the fastest opener in of any tank. PLDs start their full damage on 3rd GCD, DRKs on 4th, GNBs on 4th, and WARs presently on 4th. Why make it start on 1st?

In AoE, likewise, it should be saved for Nascent Flash to milk the lifesteal where greater than the Raw Intuition modifier. So, it doesn't really fit either case -- ST or AoE -- all that well. It's a start in the right direction, but also riddled with other new small imbalances or contradictions.

[Shurrikhan]

Alternatively, if lets say overpower can combo into maim into storms eye. That would be okay too.

Because then u can overpower to grab the pack, maim and se to apply eye, then overpower and mythril tempest spam.

This much better and less clunky than the current overpower, heavy swing, maim, eye, AND THEN overpower and mythril.

This is what I'd been suggesting for a while for both Warrior and Samurai. Let second-tier skills combo from the opening AoE skill in addition to their normal openers.

[LuceliaUltima]

U would still want to eye combo on single target to keep it up before icx2 ir. I see it useful on dungeons, idk just an idea while at work. Honestly maybe im the only one but i still like war even how it is now, dont wanna see one of his earliest mechanic get butchered again. Came bck from a 3 years break, stopped mid heavensward.