So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Driavna]

I'm curious, since this was upvoted I'm assuming players don't want a gradual difficulty curve or "easy to play, hard to master" classes. Since ff14 is marketed towards a casual playerbase foremost, being a theme park story-driven game at heart, if they chose to focus on a single demographic, they'd choose casual.

Does this mean the popular opinion is to delete EX, Savage and Ultimate entirely, make high skill cap classes like Ninja simple and focus entirely on the casual player? Genuine question, just unsure what you're disagreeing on specifically.

Going to be blunt: casual does not equal to "ultra-easy mode" and/or lack of complexity (and no, not everything needs to be savage/ultimate). FFXIV at launch was a casual game regarding the time required but generally speaking, was more difficult/interesting (and I don't mean only raid content). Since then SE has been lowering the bar with no results (right now we have a topic about people lowering their ilvl to avoid certain content) outside annoying current players (in particular healers and probably tanks too). From my point of view, SE is following Blizzard footsteps with FFXIV.

I will also confess that my disagreement with you was mainly about Wildstar, but I just forgot to edit my post and add the extra information. Making it short Wildstar failed because of a rushed launch with bad performance, a lot of bugs and the game tried to pander to many playstyles (yep, only raids were aimed to hardcore). At launch, there wasn't enough content for anyone (plus the available one was buggy).

If instead of pandering to everyone Carbine decided to focus on one demographic and keep a realistic budget the game will have been probably alive today. You don't need millions of players to be successful and profitable.

Before finishing I have one question for you: why adapt FFXIV for solo players that only want to enjoy the story and do not want to bother learning the basics when SE can release another single-player FF title?

Edit: Once again I forgot about something! Ninja was not a hard class to play but after ShB became more awkward. Example: bushin has to be paired with trick attack but you are also required to use all your heavy hitters with includes ninjutsu that is not cloned by bushin and will delay your next weaponskill.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

FFXIV at launch was a casual game regarding the time required but generally speaking, was more difficult/interesting (and I don't mean only raid content). Since then SE has been lowering the bar with no results

I'm sorry, but that is just not true. Same thing as Classic Wow, in fact. Everyone claimed it was much harder than Normal WoW, while you got people running the latest raids naked two weeks after their release.

Bahamut is much, much easier than normal Eden. The only difficulty back then was servers at the other end of the world, and people being simply bad, both at playing their classes, and at doing mechanics.

The difficulty actually almost always went upwards, and right now, the game is not easy, the playerbase is just good. "gnngnn, but the dude I ran into in E11N last night", yes. There are bad players. That doesn't change the fact E11N is harder than Phenix, for example.

And your rant about ninja follows the same path. Actually, ShB Ninja is much less awkward that it once was, simply because of mudras, but yes, the burst window requires a lot of input. But it isn' t a bad thing at all, it only caters to people that like those sort of classes.

[Ammokkx]

I'm sorry, but that is just not true. Same thing as Classic Wow, in fact. Everyone claimed it was much harder than Normal WoW, while you got people running the latest raids naked two weeks after their release.

Bahamut is much, much easier than normal Eden. The only difficulty back then was servers at the other end of the world, and people being simply bad, both at playing their classes, and at doing mechanics.

The difficulty actually almost always went upwards, and right now, the game is not easy, the playerbase is just good. "gnngnn, but the dude I ran into in E11N last night", yes. There are bad players. That doesn't change the fact E11N is harder than Phenix, for example.

And your rant about ninja follows the same path. Actually, ShB Ninja is much less awkward that it once was, simply because of mudras, but yes, the burst window requires a lot of input. But it isn' t a bad thing at all, it only caters to people that like those sort of classes.

Ahem. I repeat myself.

it took titanman 2 bumps on 2 separate accounts, but my diddly damn he finally did get this necro'd again

Please. For the love of god. Report his accounts and let these threads stay buried.

[Nezerius]

Bahamut is much, much easier than normal Eden. The only difficulty back then was servers at the other end of the world, and people being simply bad, both at playing their classes, and at doing mechanics.

The difficulty actually almost always went upwards, and right now, the game is not easy, the playerbase is just good. "gnngnn, but the dude I ran into in E11N last night", yes. There are bad players. That doesn't change the fact E11N is harder than Phenix, for example.

This just shows that you've never run any of the Coil raids when they were current content, or pre-nerf (mainly second coil getting a bunch of nerfs)

Sure, current day savage is harder than Coil, but the normal modes definitely aren't. Coil's difficulty is even the reason why normal mode exists, because players complained that they couldn't experience the raid story.

[Saefinn]

This just shows that you've never run any of the Coil raids when they were current content, or pre-nerf (mainly second coil getting a bunch of nerfs)

Sure, current day savage is harder than Coil, but the normal modes definitely aren't. Coil's difficulty is even the reason why normal mode exists, because players complained that they couldn't experience the raid story.

Pretty much. The punishment for mistakes was generally harsher too. Whilst I know the servers were worse back then, it was one of the reasons Titan EX was a toughie because you had to learn to compensate for lag. But to be honest, that was something you learned to do anyway back then. Heck, being an EU player on a US server I still have that problem. Doing Titan Savage was a good throw back to Titan EX in that respect because I have to compensate for lag in that too and have died to it. Eden Normal is definitely easier. I've been able to jump into DF for all of the Normal Eden Raids and clear with zero wipes, or one or two wipes depending on the competency of the group and the raid.

Coils was a different matter. I joined multiple PF groups to get a Twintania clear. And I had to do learning parties first and we'd mark them by phase too, exactly like people do with Savage raids today. I don't think they were as mechanically complex as some raids today, but stuff hit harder, more insta death mechanics were there and your healers weren't sat there with a million oGCD's and actually had work to do, normal Eden raids aren't like that. And to a degree server lag added to the challenge, but not to the degree implied.